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Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/17 00:35
Hi, here is a question about the Japanese language. As we all know, many English words were introduced in Japan after WW2, and today there are plenty of English words in the everyday's vocabulary of Japanese people.
We have many examples: konpyutâ (computer), doâ (door), adobaisu (advice), etc...

But what I'm wondering is: as those words can sound too different from pure Japanese language, are they used in standard institutions? such as official documents, vocabulary lessons in school, TV news, etc...?


When I look at Japanese newspapers or news websites, I'm always surprised that there are very few Katakanas in the text. It makes me think that foreign words are seldom used in official documents. Excepted with proper nouns such as city nouns or country nouns, of course.
by izquierda (guest)  

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/17 13:04
here is one of official documents of Ministry of Education.
http://www.mext.go.jp/b_menu/shingi/chousa/shotou/056/shiryo/attach/12...
by ken (guest) rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/17 15:30
Yes, it is widely used. Some pronounciation may sound different but mostly accepted as Japanese language.
by tokyo friend 48 rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/17 17:37
@Ken:

thanks for your article. There are a lot of English words (like konpyutâ, purojekuta, intânetto,...).

But, I woulddn't say that those words are true "English words", those are words referring to new technologies, that were invented in Western countries (like, Internet was invented in the US). Those words don't replace existing Japanese words: They introduce something new.


I'm trying to explain: if you say "I saw a Sputnik in space", you used a Russian word. But is it really a "new word"? It's just the name of a technology that was invented by Russia.

Another example: "The use of tamagotchis is forbidden in the class".
You said "tamagotchi", but as the tamagotchi is the proper noun of the technology that comes from Japan (and DIDN'T exist in the US before), you use a brand-new word for a brand-new product. "Tamagotchi" doesn't replace any existing word in English.


What I am wondering is, does it happen that existing Japanese words are fully replaced by their English equivalents in official texts (for example, "privacy"/"puraibashii", "doa"/"door", "nyûzu"/"news",...). Those are words that already exist in Japanese (for example there are more than 10 words to mean " a door").
by izquierda (guest) rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/17 19:07
There are a few different categories of "imported words" that are expressed in katakana writing and used as part of the Japanese language.

Words like "Sputnik" are proper nouns, just like "Tom" "New York" and other personal and place names, so their pronunciation are written down as they are into katakana, like スプートニク (Supuutoniku) or トム (Tomu), and ニューヨーク (Nyuu Yooku).

Words like "computer," "internet," etc., those where the concept (or the thing itself) were introduced into Japan as new things, then those common English words may be simply used as they are (of course written down in katakana), because the concept/thing came into Japan simultaneously with the names for them. There was no time, so to say, for Japanese-original words to be formed to express them. (In the old times, for example the in the Meiji era, some academics sat down to come up with good Japanese equivalent words (written in Kanji), for concepts like "society" 社会 ("shakai").)

There is, however, an equivalent Japanese-original or native word for "computer," for example, which is "densanki 電算機." But when you hear this word, what comes to (at least to my) mind is the old IBM style computers that filled whole rooms, if you know what I mean. By the time it took on the form of desk top or lap top, they were perceived as something new, so the English-based word "konpyuutaa" got adopted.

Actually there is the tendency to use katakana (or English-based, or imported) words instead of the native Japanese words to re-vamp old concepts. For example, for "delivery" (as in food delivery service), the old-fashioned word used to be "demae." For a while the word used was/is "takuhai," just like with the next-day home deliveries. Then the word "deribari" (delivery) came to be used more recently, again, in katakana. They refer to the same thing, but when you hear "demae," the picture that comes to mind is the soba (buckwheat noodle) delivered on small metal containers mounted on the rear of small, commercial-use motorcycles, something that has been around for a long time. When they started doing pizza delivery, they wanted to differentiate themselves from that old image, and the concept came from the US, so they chose to say "takuhai piza." Then when other entities entered the food delivery market, they wanted to give it an even newer look and feel, so some restaurants chose to say "deribabi." This is another prime example of how katakana words based on non-Japanese words may be used to give the "newer" impression.
by AK rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/17 19:21
And of course, "Tamagotchi" たまごっち is a proper noun (product name) in the Japanese language that was invented by the manufacturer, so that should of course not replace any English word in English-speaking countries, though of course it is written in alphabets when you get to read it in your country :)
by AK rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/18 01:11
@AK: cool, thanks for your explanation ;)

Okay, it seems like English words are (very) well adopted by Japanese.
An opposite example: In my home country, France, there is some kind of trend to avoid using English words, and keep the French language as French as possible. When the American culture spreaded in France after WW2, all the politicians did their best to stop the birth of "Frenglish" vocabulary.
Although a few English words are now very well adopted ("weekend", "parking", etc...), you will never hear a French say "computer", "privacy", "delivery", for example. Because a person who would use too many English words would be seen as someone who didn't learn French correctly, and who gives himself a fake lifestyle.

Moreover, every time a new product is imported (for example, a "software", a "smartphone", a "walkman"), French do their best to name those concepts with French nouns. Sometimes it fails (everybody uses the English word "smartphone"), sometimes it succeeds (nobody says "software", we use the French word "logiciel").

It's really interesting to see how some countries are opened to adopt English words, whereas some others are very reluctant.

As Japan is a very traditional country, I'm surprised that there was not a political movement against English, such as the one that happened in France.
by izquierda (guest) rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/18 01:19
One way to judge is to see if the words are on proper dictionaries such as the Kojien or Daijirin.

Rules also differ depending on the document or organization or field. Usually, each organization or division would have a sort of a manual listing what words to use for what.

You will notice that more katakana is used in the entertainment pages rather than the political pages of the newspapers. But of course, less katakana is used for traditional entertainment.
by Uco rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/18 05:23
As Japan is a very traditional country, I'm surprised that there was not a political movement against English, such as the one that happened in France.

Japan is a complex, multifaceted society. If you read more you will find that there are traditionalists and language purists in Japan just as there are in France. Much of the polemical writing on the subject of imported words polluting the native tongue will be in Japanese, obviously.
by Uma (guest) rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/18 05:37
I lived in Japan many years ago and the only imported English words you would see or hear would be words for which there are no Japanese equivalents, such as; pasokon, wapro, komputa, etc.

These days even watching NHK News, many words (for which there are perfectly good Japanese words) are used to such extents it sounds ridiculous sometimes. ie,. torabulu, needs, geto, motibeshon,etc.etc.

Some Japanese seniors must have a hard time understanding what the news is about sometimes :)
by guest (guest) rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/18 14:41
"As Japan is a very traditional country, I'm surprised that there was not a political movement against English, such as the one that happened in France."

Too many Engrish looks very foolish, I think so.
But "traditional" Japanese have many Chinese style words.
Many set-phrase (jukugo or kojiseigo) are come from Chinese classical literature.
They sound very solemn for Japanese(, they are not Chinese thogh).

And for example, even in traditional festival "Gion-matsuri" in Kyoto, you can see that people use European tapestries of the 16th century there.
Shinto accept Buddhism and exist together, if Japanese culture is purism, people can't keep their tradition.

So, it's not so strange in Japan.
by ajapaneseboy rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/18 21:41
As Japan is a very traditional country, I'm surprised that there was not a political movement against English, such as the one that happened in France.

There was, and a lot of people would probably agree that that is the very reason we have the freedom to used imported words today.

During WW2, all words and cultures imported from Europe and the Americas were banned. Looking back, this was silly since even words/cultures from Japan's then ally Germany were banned as well. Anyway, many of the imported words were converted to odd Japanese terms during the war.

Once the war ended, however, and information came flooding in, the Japanese realised how silly that was. Meanwhile, what they had assumed as evil enemies turned out to be friendly Americans. Thus a great number of foreign culture was imported and translations hardly caught up.

But even today, a lot of people frown upon the usage of too many katakana terms, and this is hardly because they don't like the culture. On the contrary, although they wish to understand the culture, it would be difficult to understand Japanese conversation itself if you use too many katakana terms. For example, nowadays people use the word "risupekuto" (resect) but all you have to say is "soncho" (meaning respect) and more people would understand.

All in all, as a Japanese literature/language major graduate and current translator, I feel that modern Japanese journalism is focused on "making acticles easy to understand for the readers." For example, the word "konpyuuta" is easier to understand now than "densanki" but the word "rappu-toppu" is harder to understand than "nooto-gata paso-kon."
by Uco rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/18 23:43
@Uco,
what you write here is your personal opinion, and it is not true. there is no academic evidence.

most of new words were created at Meiji period.
人民、民主主義、共産主義、科学、哲学、野球、etc.
the created new words were exported to China and Korea.

new words have been created even after WW2.
電子計算機,computer is a good example.

I think you have a strange prejudice about WW2. denying of western culture were one of propaganda to control ignorant public people. Scientists and engineers were studying and analysing western science a lot during WW2.
by ken (guest) rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/19 20:52
ken-san,

Pardon me, what is not true? What is it about "new words"? Anyway, I agree with everything you wrote in your last post and I don't think it contradicts with mine.

戦時中に西洋からの外来語が禁止されたんは事実ですよね? 私、また何か誤解を与えてしまいましたでしょうか? Kenさんの最新の投稿には全面的に賛成ですし、私が書いたことと相反する部分はひとともないと思いますが。
by Uco rate this post as useful

Correction 2014/9/20 09:16
Incorrect:
I agree with everything you wrote in your last post

Correct:
I agree with everything you wrote in your last post except the "there is no academic evidence." and "you have a strange prejudice about WW2."
by Uco rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/20 17:51
Actually the French use many words that look English but were created by people with a poor knowledge of English.

One of my pet peeve is "relooking". It means that one redo the decorating of a room or a whole house..
in the old days the French used re-decorer, or rafraichir (to refresh) etc.

In North-America we say we do a makeover of a room/ house. Depending on how much work is involved there are various levels of makeover..

Another word used in France is "le dressing" ...it means for them a piece of furniture, like a wardrobe, but one where one can walk inside.
In other words a walk-in closet that is not built-in but mobile. One that can be moved to another room, or another home.

The French have no idea that dressing can be used to say many different things..
Like dressing up, dressing down (if your boss give you a dressing down..watch out) then there is the dressing for the salad..and on and on..

Then there is "rooming" that means for some decorators "various small accessories to furnish a room"

by Red frog (guest) rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/28 02:09
Uco san, during the WWII, only English words were denied. Japanese military was working with German Naziin many ways, science(weapon, aircraft development), medical, etc. Doctors had to learn German.

Those old bureaucrats tried to hang on to Japanese words as long as they could or tried to fit Kanji, especially in education text books, etc., even though making students life difficult. But after the war defeat, Japan was rebuilding rapidly and companies had to learn quickly English to catch up with American technologies, science, medical, etc. and imported English words.
I will tell you my experience.
I was a techincal college student in Japan and learned math. in Japanese all my life. It was difficult to understand using Japanese math. Kanji vocabraries in calculuas. However, when I had to retake math classes in English in US, it was so easy to understand in plan simple English words.

Japanese have been & will be adapting and using mixture of all foreign language in order to learn, communicate, express because they are easier, more modern, cool than old Japanese words.
by ay (guest) rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/28 03:53
Thank you, ay-san, for pointing that out. Let me give you some examples as to clarify.

The word "Kontrabass" imported from Germany originally coming from the Italian contrabbasso wasn't allowed to be used in Japan during WW2.

"Do, re, mi..." which is Italian wasn't allowed.

The company name Froebel-kan which comes from a German name, perhaps wasn't actually banned, but was forced to change its name to Nihon-hoiku-kan.
https://rnavi.ndl.go.jp/research_guide/entry/post-208.php
http://www.froebel-kan.co.jp/company/history.html

These are only a few examples. Needless to add, English was not the "only" language to be banned during the war. French and Dutch were banned as well.

Anyway, I'm only pointing out that there was indeed a "political movement" in Japan against certain foreign words, just as there was in France.
by Uco rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/28 12:11
at MEIJI period,
foreign information come from books which were TRANSLATED for Japanese readers. the translators took a few years to translate them, but the information is still NEW for Japanese. there were enough time the new words could be spread to be common.
at PRESENT, information has come orally. if someone creates a new word, there may be no time to become a common word. many words has come, and the most have disappeared. only a FEW words are in present.
new words have been created for new products, probably by merchandise. ソフトクリーム、ノートパソコン、ホッチキス、電子レンジ, etc.

"what they had assumed as evil enemies turned out to be friendly Americans."
"enemy or friend" is not a point. no relation at all.
by ken (guest) rate this post as useful

Re: Use of English words in Japanese 2014/9/28 21:04
"what they had assumed as evil enemies turned out to be friendly Americans."
"enemy or friend" is not a point. no relation at all.


Thank you for your effort in trying to point out. I'm sorry if I was misleading in any way. I didn't mean to. I just wanted to say that Japan too had a history of going back and forth banning and importing foreign culture depending on the politics of the day. Actually, out of total ignorance on my side I'm having trouble understanding what Ken is trying to say. If someone can help me help him I'd appreciate it.

先日から、はからずもKenさんに不快な思いをさせているような気がしてたいへん心苦しく思っています。「鬼畜米英」と教えられたアメリカが、戦後になって憧れの対象となったのを例に、日本でも政治体制によって言葉や文化が退けられたり受け入れられたりした歴史があった旨を、 izquierdaさんに伝えたかったのですが。Kenさんの言わんとしておられることが掴めず本当に申し訳なく思っています。
by Uco rate this post as useful

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