Things that come off as iiwake in Japan

Hey guys, I got a question from a friend recently who I haven't been able to answer, so I wanted to seek advice from the forum.

Basically, it's about saying things in Japan that come off as "excuses".

My friend started working for a Japanese company some months ago, and he sometimes comes to me for advice. Recently, he's asked me about this whole "making excuses" thing, which he seems to get comments about from the people at the office. For example, if he makes a mistake and his Japanese senpais point it out to him, he will apologize and then explain why he made the mistake, according to him, so they can better understand why he did it and what his thought process was, allowing them to correct that mistake or wrong thought process more easily. But his senpais seem to tell him that his explanations only come off as excuses to them, which makes them believe that he tries to evade responsability, when in his mind, he's trying to do the opposite: take responsibility by explaining where he went wrong.

My friend comes to sometimes for advice because he knows I've studied abroad in Japan in the past. I then remember something similar that happened to me back then. I was working a part time job at a fast food restaurant, and this one time had to go to a nearby restaurant to pick up some ingredients that the fast food joint where I worked had run out of. When I came back and got back to work, one of my senpais told me "where's your apron?", and I responded with "oh, sorry! I forgot to put it back on when I came back! I'll go get it right now". The senpai then replied with "iiwake!" (you're just making excuses).

I myself remember thinking at the time "why is he saying I'm making excuses? I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm only stating the reason why I made that mistake". So I was essentially thinking the same thing as my friend, which is why I was unable to help him with his question. What I did advise him to do though, was to stop trying to explain his mistakes when people at his work place pointed them out to him, and just apologize and move on instead.

But if anyone could provide supplementary information that would be very helpful. What is the reason that Japanese don't seem to want you to explain a mistakes? Doesn't it make more sense to explain why you made a mistake so they can help you not make it again?

I guess the "senpai" is telling him to think for himself why he made that mistake, instead of asking for suggestions where & how to change the thought process. (In a way, the "senpai" has other things to work on, so don't make him spend more time on him.) Thinking about how he went wrong is part of the learning process too.

Your past experience, I must say, was a bit different - considering the environment, just apologize, put it on (the fact that you did not have it at that moment on WAS the problem, regardless of how that happened), and don't do it again. So the most I would have said would be: "Gomennasai, ki wo tsukemasu!"

You already know the answer, in Japan (and in many asian countries) you do not talk back to your seniors. (even if you are right, i know that's hard for us gaijins but you need to suck it up and move on)

Of course you can talk back, only if it helps.

take responsibility by explaining where he went wrong.

"oh, sorry! I forgot to put it back on when I came back! I'll go get it right now". The senpai then replied with "iiwake!" (you're just making excuses).

Does it help the business if you tell them you "forgot to put it back on when I came back"? If you don't have the apron on, you obviously forgot to put it back on. You don't have to say it out loud just to embarrass yourself. You just say it to yourself, and try not to let it happen again.

What you tell them is a simple "I'm sorry. It won't happen again." I think this rule is quite universal.

If it's something like, "Our boss transferred me to another job and insisted I don't wear aprons anymore" then you have the "responsibility" to let your senpai know about it, but if it's just your careless mistake you don't have to tell them.

You need to understand the culture and society.
Japan is still a feudal society and the absolute obedience is expected from the juniors and subordinates. They also need to save their face, especially in front of others. In addition, Japanese are not trained well in critical thinking, debate or verbal skills, therefore, they feel threatened or embarrassed if they can not defeat your explanation with quick thinking or wit. Many have short tempers and get angry or upset quickly.
If you want to keep your job, it is best to say sorry and admit your mistakes without any other word, especially in front of others so his authority is shown to others and he saves his face.
When you are alone with him or at night out drinking, you can bring up the issues tactically when his guard is down so you are not misunderstood.

I disagree with the above post, but that's just my opinion.

Sure you can disagree. Where I am coming from is my many years of experience in different countries.
I am a Japanese who has lived, worked and supervised hundreds of Americans, South-Americans, Australians, Argentines, Japanese, etc. and worked with Europeans for very large US corporations for many years so my experiences gave me a few observations in how each workplace culture and society in general differs.
"kuchigotae" talking back is shunned in Japan because of the reasons I outlined above. There have been many senpai-kohai bullying incidents such as scolding, beating, even killing at workplaces and schools because of talking back and other reasons. You can still hear on news or read on shinbun today but many dramas show how kohai or subordinates are "educated" or "trained" by senpai or seniors . This is one of short comings why so many Japanese managers are unsuccessful in the world stage.

ay
I disagree with you.
Have you ever worked in Japanese company? I guess you haven't.
It is not because it is a feudal society. Even bosses and seniors try not to do iiwake. It is very basic manner and virtue, and a kind of rational practice not to take others' time in vain. I am not saying it is always the best way of communication though.

There have been many senpai-kohai bullying incidents such as scolding, beating, even killing at workplaces and schools because of talking back and other reasons.

For example?

The topic is "iiwake" and not "kuchigotae." They are two totally different things. Bye.

Japan is still a feudal society and the absolute obedience is expected from the juniors and subordinates. They also need to save their face, especially in front of others. In addition, Japanese are not trained well in critical thinking, debate or verbal skills, therefore, they feel threatened or embarrassed if they can not defeat your explanation with quick thinking or wit. Many have short tempers and get angry or upset quickly.

I originally thought that was meant to mock the stereotypical platitudes about Japanese office culture. Unfortunately that seems not to be the case :(

I've only lived in Japan for a year so I'm no expert, but it seems the Japanese way is to apologize even when the mistake is not your fault and then move on. As foreigners it can be hard to adjust to this different way of communication when we're used to saying everything that's on our minds and explaining the reasons for why we do things. In Japan things are more about the collective than the individual, so I rarely hear people saying things like: 'I'm late because I missed the bus' or 'I didn't do the work because I was sick'. They just say 'Sorry I'm late today' or 'Sorry I didn't do the work'.

Jenn Jett

They do, actually. Or they must also in internal "taikin"systems (hope you know it if you have worked here).
The reasons of being absent/late is different cases because your boss needs to know if it will take more for you to recover, if you "must not " come to office(like flu) and so on. If it is because the train was late, most of company doesn't count it as lateness only if you have the certification from the train company.

The case originally posted was not obviously such a case. It seemed to be all his fault, not because of external effects.
What I and most of my Japanese colleagues do is, first apologize without any excuses, or even when I add some reason to make things clear I make it quite light and in "sorry" tone. If I find some kaizen plan to decrease the same mistakes by others, I do it without presenting to boss in advance and report it after I get done. If it is beyond my authority I suggest it to my bossu in advance, in "sorry" tone here too.

When I read the original post I felt his tone explaining the reason must have been the problem.

yllwsmrf

Don't take what ay said serious.
She doesn't seem to know anything about Japanese business society. Things are not like she said at all.