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About Japanese grammar 2007/11/10 09:22
Dear All

I have been very confused with the use of は、のは、のに.
Could anyone teach me with some solid examples on how to use them correctly(differentiate them)?

The のに is not telling however or but in the meaning. It seems like なになに+の+に...I am confused...

Also there is many situation I need to choose between が and は for the main subject topic particle. How to determine which of them is right for certain subject topic?

Thank you so much for your help and teaching.

best rgds
Jason
by Jason  

An attempt at のに as conjuction 2007/11/12 13:45
I can't really describe "wa," and "nowa" and "noni" apart without the sentences where you've encountered them... :) You've got particles and conjuctions bunched up together there...

Let me just try to explain what this "..... noni" (used as a conjuction meaning "even though..." "..... however.) See the different clauses in [ ] to see how they connect to "...noni."

(With verbs)
- [学校に行った]のに、先生が休みで授業がキャンセルになった。(Though I went to school, the teacher was off and the lesson was cancelled.)
- [日本に行きたい]のに、まだお金が足りない。(I want to go to Japan, but I don't yet have enough money/Though I want to go to Japan, I don't have enough money yet.)

(With da/desu verb)
- [今夜デートな]のに、残業になりそうだ。(Though I have a date this evening, it looks like I'm going to have to work overtime.)

(With na-adjective)
- [彼女はきれいな]のに、言葉がきたない。(Though she is beautiful, the way she speaks is sloppy.)

(With i-adjective)
- [あの犬は大きい]のに、こわがりだ。(Though that dog is big, he is timid/gets scared easily.)
by AK rate this post as useful

Thank you AK, follow ups 2007/11/13 22:18
Dear AK

Thanks a lot for giving so many examples.
I really appreciate your teaching. Seems like all your sentence with noni actually gives the meaning of though/although.

I have another question with noni which I need your help to explain.
See below
会社まで いくのに 毎朝 1じいかんはんも かかります。
What is the meaning of noni here refers to ?
I am confused with though for this sentence.
Why cant I use のは for this sentence?

Another one is には question.
このいけには さかなが たくさん いるはず なのに ぜんぜん つれません.
のに for this sentence I can understand. But には  is confusing. Can I replace には with は or に?
By the way, I found in dictionary はず means can/ought/should, but for this sentence, is the meaning of `can` correct?

Sorry for the long winded questions.
Kindly help
Thank you AK . どもありがとうございます

best rgds
Jason
by Jason rate this post as useful

... 2007/11/13 22:42
会社まで いくのに 毎朝 1じかんはんも かかります。

To say "(something/doing something) takes (certain time)," the sentence structure is simply:
[・・・]に (時間)(が) かかります。

A noun or a noun phrase comes inside the brackets [ ].
For example,
[つうきん]に 1じかんはん かかります。 (Commuting takes 1 hour and a half.)

If it's a verb (doing something), it needs to be changed into a noun phrase. "going to my office" would be either 会社までいくこと or 会社までいくの (see the function of "no" to make noun phrases.)

[会社までいくの]に、1じかんはん かかります。(To go to my office, it takes 1 hour and a half./Going to my office takes 1 hour and a half.)

このいけには さかなが たくさん いるはず なのに ぜんぜん つれません. (In this pond there should be many fish, but I can't catch any at all.)

- I must say it sounds best/most natural with には here in this sentence. You are saying "IN this pond," so you should have に in the first place. ("[Place] ni [animals] ga imasu" structure) And yet, the topic of this sentence is "what should be in this pond," so as a topic of the whole sentence, you add は as well.

- For this sentence, はず here means "(there) should (be)," as in the English sentence I gave above.
by AK rate this post as useful

... 2007/11/14 07:01
By the way, just for reference, here are a few examples where you have the の for making a noun phrase combined with は.

If you want to say "something" is difficult, then it's simply:
[ ] は むずかしい。with a noun or a noun phrase in [ ].

If it's a noun, then for example,
[にほんご]は むずかしい。(The Japanese language is difficult.)

If you want to say "doing something" is difficult, you have to turn the verb into a noun phrase. So if you want to say it's difficult to memorize kanji (kanji wo oboeru), then you use "no" to make a noun phrase (or "koto"). So as noun phrase, you will get かんじを おぼえるの or かんじを おぼえること

[かんじを おぼえるの]は むずかしい。(Memorizing kanji is difficult.)
by AK rate this post as useful

wow.. 2007/11/14 17:43
wow,AK,you're good!
I knew all of those structures before,but I don't think I'll be confusing myself again!Thanks for the explanations,and the original poster who asked for them!
by reader rate this post as useful

na+noni follow up 2007/11/14 20:50
Dear AK

Excellent!
Really thank you for doing your best to teach me the language. Am really appreciate once again!

I am still digesting the setences and so far so good.

For the sentence,
このいけには さかなが たくさん いるはず なのに ぜんぜん つれません,
the なのに portion I need some help. Why is な needed here?
Could not we just say
このいけには さかなが たくさん いるはず のに ぜんぜん つれません,

I know that NA need to be added for Na-adjective as a rough understanding. Am I right?

Thank you AK and it is great to see your answers to many of the posting on this site.
I hope you can continue this this teaching.....


Jason
by Jason rate this post as useful

... 2007/11/14 22:09
このいけには さかなが たくさん いるはず なのに ぜんぜん つれません

If you take those sentences apart, you have two sentences:

このいけには さかなが たくさん いるはず [です]。(There should be many fish in this pond.)

ぜんぜん つれません。 (I cannot catch any at all)

To connect those two sentences with "...noni," you need to change the verb [です] into its connective form of [です] (or だ if in informal speech), which is な.
by AK rate this post as useful

...0 2007/11/14 22:30
Dear AK

Formidable! I thank you for the excellent explanation. Let me run through those exercise again after review. Be right back in another post.
どもありがとうございます

Jason
by Jason rate this post as useful

... 2007/11/14 22:55
Thank you for writing :)

By the way, for writing "doumo arigatou gozaimasu," どうもありがとうございます with an う is the right way :) Have a good day/night!
by AK rate this post as useful

domo! 2007/11/17 19:34
Dear AK

どうもありがとうございます!

Jason


by Jason rate this post as useful

... 2007/11/17 22:48
Have a good weekend, Jason :)
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