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Suitable Translation for Hanko? 2008/2/5 05:30
I have a friend named Alex (short for 'Alexandra)') that I'd like to carve a stone stamp for. Here is my rough design:

http://pryne.com/images/alex.GIF

Is this a suitable translation? Can anyone recommend something better?
by Jakku  

Hanko 2008/2/5 11:44
Jakku,

That would probably leave most Japanese natives scratching their heads, but if it's just for fun and you like the way it looks, it is one possible way of writing "Arekkusu".
If you want to make a more practical hanko, it would be better to write the name in katakana as "ƒAƒŒƒbƒNƒX".
Note also that the characters in your image are brush-stroke characters, whereas the characters used for hanko usually look quite different.
by Dave in Saitama rate this post as useful

Thanks, Dave 2008/2/5 12:32
I appreciate your feedback. I probably should've mentioned that I'm familiar with katakana, & know it's normally used for foreign names. Also, I'm aware that ancient 'tortoise-shell' script is normally used for hankou, (as in most of the hanko I've carved thus far.) Also, I have no trouble doing hankou with brush script since I'm left-handed.


My main issues are that exhaustive references for ancient script are hard to find, & that I find kanji infinitely more appealing than kana. Still, in this case my friend is specifically interested in Japanese culture rather than Chinese.

Do you have an opinion on the nuance of the characters' meaning, instead of their pronunciation?

If anyone has good sources of reference material, I'd like to hear about that too. Thanks again!
by Jakku rate this post as useful

... 2008/2/5 14:43
Well, as Dave in Saitama suggested, I ended up scratching my head seeing the kanji :)

Also, I'm aware that ancient 'tortoise-shell' script is normally used for hankou,...Also, I have no trouble doing hankou with brush script since I'm left-handed

I don't think that is correct... in modern days, we (I am Japanese) do make hanko of our names, and there are different styles of hanko fonts, it's just that brush strokes are not normally used. Just a quick question...does it make a difference if the carver is left-handed?

Do you have an opinion on the nuance of the characters' meaning, instead of their pronunciation?
Since the kanji selected and assigned to non-Japanese/western names are arbitrarily chosen, they do not form a word together but form simply a string of kanji with discrete meanings. In this case, "bright," "violent/intense," "merit," and "number/numerous." The choises are completely up to you...

I've seen another "get your name in kanji" type of website, where "Alex" was turned into: r“ν ("rough/barren" and "Japanese cinnamon tree), r‹ζ‘ƒ ("rough/barren," "ward/section of town," and "nest"), and ˆŸ—η‹γŽυ ("semi-/Asia," "courtesy," "nine" and "happiness/longevitiy"), as well.
by AK rate this post as useful

"translation"? 2008/2/5 15:50
Well, my response as a Japanese was, "......Ohhhhhhh!" But it looks like a typical "ate-ji" (conversion of the phonetics into meanless random Chinese characters) done by a non-Japanese, which indeed is charming.

Actually, what I (and probably others) don't understand is what you mean by "Japanese rather than Chinese" and what you mean by "translation". If you want a typical Japanese discription of "Alex" it will be in katakana as mentioned. Meanwhile, in China they always convert names into kanji.

When non-Japanese people become Japanese nationals for one reason or another, they do often decide some kanji for their names, but usually it's either ate-ji or sometimes they might choose letters related to their personal history or profession. But it's difficult to find a letter that can mean something and fit the phonetics at the same time.

Do you have any examples of a "Japanese translation" of a name you like? Maybe that would help. Or why did you decide to choose the 4 letters in the link? It is hard to say "You are right." unless you tell us what you were trying to do.

Btw, here are some examples on the type of letters that are typically used for personal hanko (inkan).
http://www.toyodo.co.jp/002syouhin/00201in_kozi/00201inkan_k...
by Uco rate this post as useful

Thanks again! 2008/2/6 02:20
I really appreciate the feedback I'm getting here. I realize I must seem odd bumbling along studying hankou as a westerner. (LOL)

As I understand it, the normal script used for hankou is, as you say, the old-style script often called "seal script" or even "big seal script". I've also heard it referred to as "tortoise shell script" as, originally, these characters were carved upon tortoise shells before the invention of paper. (!)

I know that some seals are carved with brush-stroke characters, yet it is uncommon since it requires painting a mirror image of the character on the stone before carving. This is why I find it easier as a left-hander; I simply mirror the right-handed strokes I make when writing calligraphy with my left hand onto the stone to be carved.

I did indeed get my start with this design on a website that "translates western names in Japanese kanji," knowing ahead of time it would probably come out awkward & strange. This is why I came here seeking additional advice.

All of the hankou I've carved in the past have been Chinese names, or names I've 'invented' with Chinese characters. Ideally, I get feedback from native Chinese people to see if my original idea seems to 'flow' & have a good 'ring' to it.

As for "Japanese rather than Chinese", what I meant was I was looking for a character combination that would sound close to "Alex" when pronounced with Japanese sounds, rather than Chinese sounds, the reason being that this friend has lived in Japan & wishes to return one day.

Again, I know the obvious answer is to use katakana, but consider this:
For a native person, using katakana would seem absurd, wouldn't it? After all, if your name is "Takeshi Morikawa", for example, you'd want to use kanji. Not only because of tradition, or because that's how it's properly written, but also because kanji are simply more beautiful than kana. Wouldn't you agree? So, as a westerner in love with Asian calligraphy, I'm highly partial to using kanji over kana whenever possible. As much trouble as I have learning to read a newspaper, I lament the proposal of doing away with kanji, leaving only kana in the writing system. The Chinese trend of character-simplification, too, is much to my chagrin.

So, maybe now you understand my idiosyncrasy a bit better. I'm beginning to think that if I want to convert western names into kanji, I'd better stick with Chinese methods, hm?

Thanks again for all your feedback! It is most valuable to me.
by Jakku rate this post as useful

One more thing... 2008/2/6 02:22
I forgot to mention:

The way I understand it, "seal script" is used instead of brush scripts because the mirror image is more or less the same as the regular image. This way, it can be painted (onto the stone) with the right hand without causing much distortion.
by Jakku rate this post as useful

Oops... 2008/2/6 03:00
AK, I didn't know the second character meant "violent"! The only meaning I had beforehand was "intense" which can mean different things, depending on the context, of course...

Thanks for pointing that out!
by Jakku rate this post as useful

AK's suggestions 2008/2/6 03:14
Since this is a girl, (Alex = Alexandra) I don't think I want to use the term "barren". (LOL)

ˆŸ—η‹γŽυ might be the best bet, wouldn't you say?

Native insight is pure gold.
by Jakku rate this post as useful

To Jakku, 2008/2/6 08:36
...Takeshi Morikawa", for example, you'd want to use kanji. Not only because of tradition, or because that's how it's properly written, but also because kanji are simply more beautiful than kana. Wouldn't you agree?

Not really. Japanese names, if they were given at birth in kanji, would be normally carved into hanko in kanji, because that's what they are, and that's how they are properly written. :) My European husband does have a hanko with his family name in katakana that he loves, so I'd say opinions vary.


I'm beginning to think that if I want to convert western names into kanji, I'd better stick with Chinese methods, hm?

It wouldn't make any difference whether Japanese or Chinese "methods," because it remains the same that you would choose several kanji arbitrarily according to the sounds of the kanji, the only difference being whether the sounds you use are Japanese or Chinese (they are at times similar, but not all the time). The selected kanji together do not form a meaningful word or natural combination as names...

"seal script" is used instead of brush scripts because the mirror image is more or less the same as the regular image

Some kanji are simply not symmetrical to begin with, so I'd say it would not matter...

- Yes, —σ does mean "intense," but the nuance that is associated with it is that of extreme, violent, intense, as in —σ•— (violent wind), ‹­—σ (extremely strong - impressions, etc.), so not very positive, unless that person has... well, extreme temper or something which you want to express lol.

- About kanji choice, the native insight (at least mine) is that all of those kanji combinations do make my eyebrows go up in bewilderment, but if you must, I'm sure others here must have seen some kanji combinations/know some other kanji conversion sights :) I'll look around further too.

by AK rate this post as useful

got the picture 2008/2/6 13:20
I see more clearly now about what you're trying to do, Jakku.

"As for "Japanese rather than Chinese", what I meant was I was looking for a character combination that would sound close to "Alex" when pronounced with Japanese sounds, rather than Chinese sounds"

I think –Ύ—σŒχ” is fine, except that (A) it's a bit tricky to read –Ύ and Œχ that way and (B) because of the ” her name tends to be pronounced like "aleck-sue" and (C) from the characteristics of the letters (the way they are usually used as well as their meanings) you will imagine a male. Note that a girl can have a mannish name as long as she doesn't mind the image.

"For a native person, using katakana would seem absurd, wouldn't it? After all, if your name is "Takeshi Morikawa", for example, you'd want to use kanji. Not only because of tradition, or because that's how it's properly written, but also because kanji are simply more beautiful than kana. Wouldn't you agree?"

I don't agree at all. Takeshi is usually written in kanji simply because it is usually written in kanji, and that's what people expect. A great number of female names are written in kana from the beginning. Yayoi, Hana, Shiho...you name it. In the past katakana was used as a standard so these names were usually written in katakana. Today the standard is hiragana, so usually these names are officially registered and commonly written in hiragana.

In ancient Japan, males always wrote in kanji only and females always wrote in hiragana only. Because of this tradition, as well as the characteristics of the way they look (kanji is more complex and have many angles, while kana is more simple and round), even today, kana is thought to have a more femine feel while kanji has a more mannish feel. My grandmother even prefered to have her name always written in katakana, because she didn't like the kanji that was officially registered for her name. She said, "It looks like a man's name."

Some male names are also written in kana, and a lot of celebrities would even bother to use kana for their stage names. “cŒϋƒgƒ‚ƒƒ’ (Tomoroo Taguchi), former singer and now actor and popular narrator, with his first name in katakana being among the typical ones. I really love the balance of the six characters he uses.

So, back to your question, when a native Japanese sees names like –Ύ—σŒχ” or ˆŸ—η‹γŽυ and is told it's supposed to be read "Alex", (s)he will most likely think, "Well, her parents must have really been a foreign culture freak, or she is a foreign person who is a Japanese culture freak, and if she has ever lived in japan, she must have had a hard time writing all these four letters all the time." or would simply think, "Oh, so she's another gaijin-san who is in love with Japan and wants to have kanji items." which are neither negative impressions, but that's all there is to it. If it were in katakana, people would think nothing.

But it's cool to have a kanji hanko. If you show it to people, they would probably say "Hey, cool!" And I do like ˆŸ—η‹γŽυ much better. It's very orthodox. All letters except ‹γ are very commonly used in female names, the top letter (and usually the top letter gives the biggest impression) is very commonly used to express the sound "A", all letters are commonly pronouced the way Jakku wishes to in this case: a-lei-ku-su. Also Žυ is a very happy character, and —η because of its meaning looks very honorable.

Other options:
If you prefer to make the "le" part sound more with a staccato (as in the —σ) rather than "lei", my kanji dictionary gives me —ρ as an option. —ρ means "queue" and my dictionary says that therefore it has a meaning of "nakama (mates)". Also unless you particularly prefer to use the "nine" meaning of ‹γ, how about letters like ‹v (meaning "lengthly" and typically used to express the sound "ku" in a name), or to make it a bit romantic although unique, g can be read "ku" and means "crimson" which may suit a fancy-looking girl.

"The way I understand it, "seal script" is used instead of brush scripts because the mirror image is more or less the same as the regular image. This way, it can be painted (onto the stone) with the right hand without causing much distortion"

I do have one little brush script hanko, but I think the main reason for using seal script (or whatever you call it) is because (A) it stamps more clearly and (B) they last longer. Anyone who has used hanko on daily basis knows that it's really difficult to press a neat stamp without any of the parts being faded or blurred with too much ink. Also as you press them so many times over the years, any thinner part of the hanko tends to wear down.

On a related note, usually hanko have letters carved very close together, almost so that each letter touches the outline of another letter or the outline of the hanko. I don't know why, but at least it looks better that way.
by Uco rate this post as useful

Whoops 2008/2/6 17:55
Sorry, what I earlier noted as ˆŸ—η‹γŽυ was incorrect - that site's recommended combination was ˆŸ—η‹vŽυ, the third kanji meaning "long (in time)," which I'd say is a kanji that is more often used in women's names :)
by AK rate this post as useful

Just to add 2008/2/6 18:05
Another site also recommended r“ν ("are" + "kusu") again, saying it's "wild camphor tree."

Another one went for@ˆ½“Ύ“ν, ˆ½d“ν, ˆ½Ž}“ν, this time going for "aru" + "e" + "kusu." This "aru" means "a certain," followed by either "gain," "duplicate," or "branch," then the same tree at the end.

....Among all that I've seen so far, I think I'd go for ˆŸ—η‹vŽυ for the pleasant meanings.
by AK rate this post as useful

Wow, such great feedback! 2008/2/7 03:32
I really can't thank you enough, Uco & AK! It just goes to show that no matter how deeply one studies available books, there's always much more to learn from discussion with other people.

I'm actually beginning to be swayed to the idea of using kana instead of kanji in this case. (This would be my first hankou in kana.) Generally, I still use Chinese adaptions of Western names, & usually in seal script too, but like I said, Japanese style is more appropriate for this one.

I'm afraid I misspoke as to the mirror image of seal script characters; what I meant was that the shape of the stroke doesn't display much characteristic of the hand used to write the character (unlike brush script which has many clear indications of having been painted with the right hand & therefore MUST be painted with the right hand, on paper that is.) This is the reason that I suspected it's more common usage for hankou. Thanks again, Uco, for sharing your insights on why this is so!

I only wish I had some good information to offer in return, but here, I am the blind man, fumbling with tools in the dark. (LOL)
by Jakku rate this post as useful

depends on her purpose 2008/2/9 12:28
I was just thinking.

If she is planning to stamp it on artistic works she may be doing, or trying to impress locals, a kanji hanko may be suitable.

If she is actually going to use it on official documents, as slightly mentioned, a katakana hanko will be practical. Hanko is similar to what signitures are in Western nations. In official documents, you are expected to use hanko that represents your name in block letters. I don't think a kanji hanko will cause serious problems, but katakana may make things easier.
by Uco rate this post as useful

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