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vb shita vs vb sareta
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2008/8/20 07:57
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Hi. As the title implies, I would like to know the difference between vb-shita and vb-sareta when they function as attributive adjectives.
I think that when tadoushi is involved, -sareta is used; and vice-versa for jidoushi. Ex: kesu kesareta kieru kieta
When a irregular verb is involved, which one should I use? Ex: hiraku
When a 'neutral' verb is involved, which one should I use? Ex: yakusoku suru
Am I right? Everyone, please feel free to drop some ideas. Thank you. =p
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by Zyzzyva
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Just some examples...
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2008/8/20 10:36
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kesu (to erase, to delete) kesareta (deleted, extinguished) kieru (to disappear) kieta (to have disappeared, to have gone)
hiraku (to open) hirakareta (have been opened)
akeru (for someone to open something) akerareta (opened by someone)/aita (simply "opened")
aku (for something to open by itself) aita (simply "opened/open")
yakusoku suru (to promise) yakusoku sareta (to have been promised by someone)
...where do you get those classifications like "jidoushi" and "tadoshi," vs. "irregular" and "neutral"?? "Jidoshi" and "tadoshi" are intransitive/transitive verbs, so they are groups according to the meaning/nature of the verbs, and "irregular" and "neutral"? by conjugations types?
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by AK
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I think that when tadoushi is involved, -sareta is used
Not necessarily. Choice between shita and sareta depends on the meaning you want to express (active or passive). For intransitive verbs, only shita can be usually used, but for transitive verbs, you can use either.
kesu kesareta
kesita is also possible.
kesareta otoko: a man that was deleted (i.e. killed) keshita kako: (my) past that (I) have deleted
When a irregular verb is involved, which one should I use? Ex: hiraku
hiraita tobira: an open door (it may have opened by itself) hirakareta tobira: an open door (opened by someone)
BTW why do you refer to "hiraku" as "irregular"? Because it works both as intransitive and transitive?
When a 'neutral' verb is involved, which one should I use? Ex: yakusoku suru
yakusoku shita jikan: the time that we have promised yakusoku sareta tochi: the promised land
Even an intransitive verb can be sareta.
tsuma ni shinareta otoko: a man whose wife is dead (literally, a man who was died by his wife)
This is called "meiwaku no ukemi" (passive of trouble) and characteristic to Japanese.
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by meringue4
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Just a noob
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2008/8/21 15:11
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As the title implies, I am just (and still) a noob. The classifications are just my (wild) ideas. I just wanna try out b4 getting the explanations. Sorry for bewildering you guys.
kesareta otoko: a man that was deleted (i.e. killed) keshita kako: (my) past that (I) have deleted
Oh i see. The meanings overlap, but kesareta implies it may be caused by anyone; and that keshita implies that it is more likely to be caused by oneself. This depends on the context is it?
The same goes for yakusoku is it?
BTW why do you refer to "hiraku" as "irregular"? Because it works both as intransitive and transitive?
Hehe. You got it right. But I got the idea from some website.
meiwaku no ukemi
Wow! I have no idea that such things exists. Cool. =p
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by Zyzzyva
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