Changing jobs

Hello, can someone please give some advice for my situation?

I currently live outside of Japan and recently accepted a job offer in Tokyo with company "A". The company just submitted a CoE application on my behalf.

However, another company ("B") in Tokyo has shown an interest in interviewing me. This company seems more attractive to me, and they offer a better paying job (like 1.5 ~ 2 million additional yen per year).

What are my options in the following scenarios?

Scenario 1: I accept offer from company "B", and at that point I have received the CoE, but not applied for a visa yet. Will I need a new CoE from company "B"?

Scenario 2: I accept offer from company "B", and already have visa with company "A", but haven't entered Japan. Can I enter Japan as a tourist, then change work visa with company "A" to company "B"? How long would it take to do so, and can it be done while I'm in Japan?

Also, in any of the two scenearios, I think it would be reasonable to reimburse company "A" for my visa expenses. How much does it cost approximately if they used an attorney?

It is not a matter of visa expenses, but rather that of trust - if Immigration receives an application for CoE for the same person from one company, then later another application from another company, would they get the impression that this person is trustworthy? No.

If you are planning to accept the offer from B, inform A immediately and get them to stop the CoE application process. Start from zero. Your visa is tied (at least initially) to that employer.

This is not like you are in Japan already and have worked for Company A for one year, then decided to change employer to Company B.

http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/quereadisplay.html?0+94906

I know this is an old thread, and I did not log in at this time, but I will still give the same answer today.

I think in both cases you would be committing fraud, since by entering on a visa "sponsored" by Company A you implicitly state an intent to work with Company A, which is false.

I see that the OP is not even thinking about applying for a CoE with Company B. That will be fraud, as Firas mentioned... and doing the "scenario 2" would be time-wasting and would not work, because once you enter Japan as a "temporary visitor," then that means you are not using your work visa to enter Japan, so you need to start from zero to apply for the work visa, and while you wait, you cannot start work, so that would be bad for the employer. The sponsoring company is doing the visa application beforehand so that you can start work immediately, so do not waste their efforts.

One option is ask company B to give some time
Enter Japan and join company A and let them know you are not interested in working there
Go to immigration and inform that you want to move to company B - you can re use you visa
Join company B

There is no fraud here and it's none of imigrations business if you hop jobs in few months, so long you have offer of work they will not stop you

If OP can honestly and sincerely "work" at Company A for a few months, that "might" be an option - there is no fraud there except for the true intention.

But rather than waste Company A's time that way (they will need to set up the OP with housing, training, etc., then once OP leaves, they have to look for another person from zero) and keeping Company B waiting until OP can work for them (how is OP going to make sure that they wait, by telling them please wait till he arrives with a visa and then switch?), at least I would find it more honest and a good start to working in Japan to tell Company A right now, and get Company B to sponsor the CoE.

it is changing a sponsor in secret, not changing a job.

Hi all, thanks for the replies. I appreciate it a lot.

I understand the situation and have no intention to break the law in any way. I know I sound like a mercenary that is not being considerate towards company's "A" efforts to hire me. Never done this before, but the salary difference is considerable, and right now I would greatly benefit from a higher salary due to a personal situation I'm going through. It isn't just me being greedy, trust me.

I ask you to please leave the "ethical" aspects out of the picture for this ocassion and let me know legal alternatives. (Corporations are not good as saints either)

Let me clarify:

- I cannot reject company [A]'s offer now because I have not received [B]'s offer yet. It is too risky.

- CoE application has been submitted already by company [A]. Not sure if I can stop it, and again, I wouldn't ask them to do so until company [B] throws an offer.

- As per suggestion of AK, submitting a second CoE creates trust issues with the Immigration Bureau, so I should refrain from doing that.

What about this?:

Reject company's [A] offer after getting the visa but before moving to Japan (supposing I already received [B]'s offer). Enter Japan as a tourist. That way I'm not comitting fraud because I won't say that I'll work for company [A], and I won't. At that point, work visa is still valid even if not being used, right? Can I make a change of sponsor to company [B], while in Japan on a tourist visa? If yes, how long would it take?

There's a second option, in case that [B]'s offer arrive later than expected. What about entering Japan with [A]'s work visa, work for them, then change sponsor once [B] makes an offer? How long would I need to work for [A] before I can change companies?

Thank you very much for your help

It seems that the most straightforward path in your situation is to inform Company B of the situation, get a firm offer from them, cancel your application with Company A, and reapply. There likely won't be an immigration penalty going this route as you won't have 2 COEs processing at the same time. You will only be set back the time that your COE from A has been processing.

Your alternative plans are not really feasible. Plan A is a non-starter. Plan B would b unlikely unless Company B is really really interested in hiring you and really really patient.

Your considered option of entering as a tourist but keeping the work visa under A does NOT work, because once you decide to enter the country as a tourist (temporary visitor) you are dropping off your rights to enter on a work visa, so it will be invalidated, you see what I mean? Visa is for entering the country. If you don't use it, it's not valid anymore.

The only way you can "keep" your work visa as it stands NOW if you let things proceed as they are is that you enter Japan with a CoE thus visa sponsored with A, then after working for a few months change to B, which is fraudulent as well as unethical.

The only "straightforward" way for you is to tell A NOW that you found a better offer from B (if it is firm) and apologize and let them drop the application for CoE they are filing on your behalf (sure they can drop it), let B file an application for you, and enter Japan when that is ready.

Thank you for making it clear.

Sounds like it's already too complicated. I think I will just work for company [A] and ask company [B] to stop the process (because I don't even have an offer from them yet). Maybe there will be a better opportunity in the future after I've established in Japan.

However, I still struggle to understand why it would be fraudulent to change jobs after working for a few months with company [A]? Is there a rule that states the period of time that I should work at a company before attempting to change jobs? (it is unethical...no question about that...)

what you are thinking and try to doing is 信義にもとる行為.
probably, it may be OK in your world. ( I read many times the similar arguments in this forum.) but,,,,.
in Japan, there are more important things than following the laws.

follow AK's advise.

Well, I'm so impressed of the apparent high morals of everyone here! Everyone is so concerned about OP making a company waste their time with visa processing instead of helping him figure out good alternatives so that he can make such an important career and life choice.

OP has mentioned that he still doesn't have an offer from B and is not yet sure of getting one, but you keep suggesting that he stops the process with company A just for the sake of "ethics"? What if he doesn't receive an offer from B and he ends up with no job at all? Please tell me you wouldn't even consider of making a "dick" move if given the chance of taking a much better paying job..... really...

Anyway, here are my two cents OP:

Scenario 1: You can't use the COE from A to get a visa with B. You'll need to start the process all over again with B.

Scenario 2: Similar to 1. You can't enter Japan with a visa from A if you're actually not going to work for them. Also, you can't enter Japan as a tourist and intend to change work visa A to B there, because if you don't use the work visa at entry point, it doesn't become valid. So again, you'd need to restart the process with B to get a new visa.

The last option is to start working with A, and move to B once you get an offer. You just need to notify immigration and as someone already said, they shouldn't care if you hop jobs so soon as long as you have an offer.

Scenario 1 is the least damaging, but in reality all of them are going to burn you bridges equally. I won't lecture you about ethics because I've been in your situation before and can understand the temptation of landing a much better job. Just be aware that this is a move that can be pulled off succesfully once or maybe twice in your entire career. Consider all aspects and benefits from company B before deciding it's worth the move.

Good luck with whatever choice you make!

I never suggested telling A to stop the process BEFORE he gets an offer from B. Initially OP was making it sound like an offer has been made by B (when he said "I accept offer from company "B"" and such...) and it was later I noticed he did not yet have an offer from B.

It is like you accept a job offer from A, A starts preparing for an office and desk for you, and you continue shopping for other employers, and later get an offer from B, then you say sorry I'm not going to work for you A. Is that good in your own country?

If he does not yet have an offer from B, then if I were in his place I would go ahead and forget about B but work for A, since I already said yes to their offer. That is all I am saying.

If he simply cannot give up his hopes for B, then he can let the process by A proceed, and if he does get an offer from B, he can apologize to A and kick it, but then start from zero with B for the CoE application process.

And BTW, having many people hop too quickly from one job to another can be damaging to the reputation of foreign workers hired from outside Japan.

Also in his initial Scenario 2, the OP was saying something impossible like having a work visa but entering Japan as a tourist, so I needed to correct that understanding.

AK, I was not referring to just you, but to everyone here that seem to blindly prioritize the needs of a company over the needs of a individual. But thanks for responding, so let me chip in.

Is it good that OP kicks his employer after all the arrangements they're making for his arrival? No, no matter the country. But it is also not good when companies need to cut costs and kick you out despite years of service and good performance. And it does happen too, more often than not. Yes, in Japan too, this is 2016.

What I'm trying to say is that in today's world loyalty and teamwork are important, but you also need to understand that sometimes only you can scratch your own back. I agree that you can't get away with hopping from job to job and be burning bridges like crazy, but there are a few times in your career life when taking the risk might be worth, and I explained that very clearly in my previous post. Opportunities come and go, and some of them arrive only once and not at the best timing. Is he going to get burned and be blacklisted by company A? Most likely yes, but the outcome might be better in the long run, and OP is the only one that can judge based on his own personal circumstances, which no one here knows. He came here looking for legal advice, not lessons in ethics.

Next, I agree with you that in all situations he would need to start the visa process from zero with employer B, but need to clarify about this statement of yours:

"If he simply cannot give up his hopes for B, then he can let the process by A proceed, and if he does get an offer from B, he can apologize to A and kick it, but then start from zero with B for the CoE application process."

It depends. If he has a visa with employer A, is not yet in Japan, and wishes to take B's offer, then yes, he needs to restart the visa process.

However, if he has a visa with A and is already in Japan working for A, he just needs to go to immigration and announce a change of sponsor, and it will be alright, no matter how "unethical" it looks.

I apologize if my reply seems to aggressive, but I just feel that Op could have received better advice for his situation instead of getting bashed for trying to pursue an opportunity that he considers better.

so FUNNY.
the posters show the reason why many Japanese say that foreigners are untrustworthy.

Mr.Ethics does not know the difference between 契約社員 and 正社員.
most of foreigners are 契約社員, and 契約社員 is "expendables" and is hired just for a temporary necessity.
companies can't kick out 正社員 without a few exceptions in Japan.

Ken, it is so FUNNY, right?

Your refusal to accept change and your inflexibility to adapt to new ways show just a reason of why lots of japanese companies are starting to lag behind lots of foreign firms.

interestingly enough, usually it is the most educated, ambitious and capable portion of the japanese population the one that is willing to take most risks, and that is more successful and competitive in today's global world.

Stay comfy in your 80's bubble.

Opinions have nothing to do with this, Mr. Ethics. Okay, the system is screwed up in your eyes, but that doesn't matter. What matters is what "is" and not "what it should be".

Mr. Ethics,

I hope you come back as a registered user :) so that we get to "talk" a bit more :)

I must admit my response has trailed off a bit from what is "legally allowed" to what is "ethically allowed/considered good practice" for non-Japanese finding employment in Japan.

I myself am Japanese, married to non-Japanese spouse who has seen different aspects of employment in Japan, including a full self-supporting student (not easy), full "expat" treatment, to a local employment, to a local employment without even unemployment insurance, to self-supporting freelance worker, etc., if you know what I mean. So I wanted to offer him "practical" suggestions, including the implications of what he was considering to do (which I know there would be some implications). And yes, I do hope for the best for the OP.