Kamikochi or ryokan in Matsumoto?

Hi everyone,

So, I've decided to do Sunday night and Monday night in Kanazawa, take an early evening train on Tuesday to Nagano to connect to Matsumoto and then...

I can either:

1)
take a late day bus ( 15:36) to Kamikochi, overnight in Kamikochi Wednesday night
spend most of Thursday in Kamikochi and then take a late day bus back to Matsumoto (16:45 or 17:25) and overnight Matsumoto
Spend Friday in Matsumoto with a few hours for Zenkoji in Nagano and then overnight in Koriyama (My daughter wants to go to Zenkoji because I told her about the underground passage.)

or

2)
take an early bus to Kamikochi (8:41), overnight in Kamikochi Wednesday night
leave Thursday morning for Matsumoto (9:30 or 10:05) and spend all afternoon in Matsumoto overnight in Matsumoto
spend some of Friday in Matsumoto with a few hours for Zenkoji in Nagano and then overnight in Koriyama

or

3)
spend all day Wednesday in Matsumoto overnight in a ryokan in Utsukushigahara
spend some of Thursday in Matsumoto and leave after dinner for Nagano (or perhaps leave earlier and stay in Karuizawa.. this option has a little more flexibility) overnight in Nagano/Karuizawa on Thursday
Friday visit Zenkoji and.. something else, with maybe a stop in Karuizawa or Bessho before spending Friday night in Koriyama.

It's late June. I'm not worried about temperatures in Matsumoto or Nagano, just rain since my daughter doesn't like doing outdoor activities in the rain. I do like Nagano and have spent quite a bit of time in the city. With options 1 or 2 I could pick when I take my bus to Kamikochi based on the weather, but the big decision is whether it makes sense to even go there.

We'll be using public transportation until we reach Koriyama.

Thank you in advance :)

I think Kamikochi is one of the best place in Japan, so I strongly recommend you to stay there as long as possible. But if you don’t like walking in the rain, you should check the probability of the rain.

I checked the precipitation for the last ten days of June in Kamikochi, on Japan Meteorological Agency, from 2008 to 2017.

http://www.data.jma.go.jp/obd/stats/etrn/view/daily_a1.php?prec_no=48&...

The days of no precipitation (0 mm) are: 4, 4, 3, ?, 8, 4, 2, 2, 0, and 6 (Average 3.67). Therefore the probability of the two consecutive rainy days is (1-0.367)^2=0.4. In other words, it will be 60% that at least one of your 2 days in Karuizawa are not rainy.

I would recommend you to be flexible: It is not the high season and you will stay Kamikochi in weekdays, so keep watching the weather forecast and if the wheather will be fine, book accommodation in or close to Karuizawa. After booking, just pray :).

Hi Frog1954,

I admit, Kamikochi is just one of those places I really want to go and it seems like a week day in June is "off-season." I feel like I can come back to Matsumoto in the future easily. I really wanted to make it to Kamikochi last trip, but my daughter got sick. I was just going to spend a few hours there but this trip I have more time. If I have to, I can spend Friday night in Nagano or Kauizawa, I just want to be back on the main shinkansen line to make it easier to get to Koriyama if I don't stay there. I'm nervous about renting a car, but probably will to go to Licca Castle, because the trains between Koriyama and Ononiimachi could be better and it would give me a chance to stop off at Abukumado.

A little bit of rain is OK, but all day rain is just challenging. I've been quite lucky despite it being rainy season and only had very rainy days in Hakone, Nara and Tokyo Disney my last two June trips. (The rain in Tokyo Disney was a plus.)

I always appreciate your input @Frog1954. :)

We stayed 3 nights at the Onsen Hotel at Kamikouchi, it is really nice - food brilliant, rotenburo brilliant, and the staff are awesome. I'd highly recommend it, though I havent stayed at the other places so I dont know how they compare.

@Lazy Pious, the onsen does look beautiful there. I am debating booking there, Gosenjaku or the Taisyoike Hotel. I can get a surprisingly good rate at the Taisyoike and it might be nice being around Taisho Pond so early in the morning when no one else but other guests are there. I do like that the Kamikouchi Onsen Hotel seems to offer a morning walk, though Gosenjaku has star viewing. It's hard deciding what makes the most sense for us. All 3 say they will cater to dietary restrictions which is quite a nice thing for us, as I hate paying for food no one will consider eating. One negative for Taisyoike, is I expect it is easier to get a bus back from the main terminal closer to Gosenjaku and the Onsen Hotel.

I do think that for us it might make more sense to do a night in Kamikochi. We really are more outdoorsy sorts and I think Kamikochi is probably more rewarding for us. I am sure my daughter will love taking pictures there. :)

I always appreciate your input @Frog1954. :)

Thank you. Me, too. :)

The accommodations listed all seem to be nice, and I can’t make comments on these since I have only once been to Kamikochi and at that time I camped at Konashidaira (40 odd years ago). But I would like to add two places, which might have some interest for you. These two seem not to appear on the booking sites such as booking.com or rakuten.com.

Nishi-Itoya mountain lodge
http://www.nishiitoya.com/en/
Tripadvisor 3rd place next to Gosenjaku and Teikoku hotel. As compared to these two hotels, Nishi-Itoya is quite affordable. They provide dinner and breakfast which can be vegetarian on request.

Konashidaira camping retreat
http://www.nihonalpskankou.com/common/pdf/EnglishGuide2018.pdf
They have some cottages, which are incredibly cheap (12000 yen for 2) as for the Kamikochi accommodation. Unfortunately it seems to be closed on Wednesdays.

@Frog1954, thank you! I was a little confused when I saw that camping page and thought it was 12,000 yen per person which seemed awful high. But 12,000 for 2 people + more for any kids after that makes more sense. I wonder if I could go Thursday, I just need to make it back to the Hokuriku line by 20:30/21:00 on Friday night. I actually like to cook and my daughter is happy eating white rice and edamame. If only the cabins were open on Wednesday I would think about booking Wednesday and Thursday. I would consider the fixed tent, but I just know it is going to add up between needing bedding and various supplies since I am not bringing those sorts of things with me.

Japan really has changed a lot in the last 20 years! My first trip was in March 1999, everything was just so much less crowded. It's another reason I would like to overnight in Kamikochi. I expect at night and in the morning it is much quieter.

I did think about Nishi Itoya as well, it has a lot of good reviews. Outside the cabins, Wednesday seems pretty open, so it's just a matter of deciding. I admit, I try not to talk about being a vegetarian too much because some people on this forum don't think you can enjoy Japan as a vegetarian. It's not true. I love Japan, it just restricts what I can eat. There are a lot more delicious and authentic vegetarian options now, though my favorite meal ever was at a small ryokan in Oyu onsen that made a gorgeous Kaiseki meal just for me.

Would you think about doing Wednesday and Thursday in Kamikochi? It would give Matsumoto the short shift since I would only really have 1/2 day on Wednesday or 1/2 day on Friday, possibly both? I would just go straight to Kamikochi on Tuesday, but I think from Kanazawa I would need to leave quite early and I don't think the bus from Kanazawa to Takayama to Hirayu to Kamikochi would be any faster, but I guess I can try to check. Rental car seems awful expensive since I would not be returning it to Kanazawa. We'l probably get to Kanazawa relatively early on Sunday because my daughter will still have jet lag, so I can see us on a train by 10 am at the latest from Kyoto. (We're staying near Keihan Shijo in Kyoto.) I plan to ask a friend in Osaka if she can accept a package for us so we can do the Kutani-yaki Pottery experience.

Any thoughts you have would be appreciated since I sometimes feel limited by my Japanese.

I guess one other option would be:

Pay for train fare to Kanazawa out of pocket and stay in Kanazawa Sun, Mon and Tues night. On Wednesday start my pass and go to Matsumoto and overnight there. Visit Kamikochi Thurs and spend Thursday night there and visit on Friday and spend Friday night there and then I just need to get back to Tokyo by Sat night. I would then move Licca Castle to Tuesday while my 1 week pass is still in pace because its 7680 yen (unreserved seat) or 8200 with seat one way, so the total is going to be 15360-16,400 just on that round trip.

I thought about trying to start by going to Kamikochi from Kyoto, but then I need to end up paying the ~9000 yen for the train from Kyoto to Takayama. (It's over an hour slower by bus and there are a lot fewer buses, though I guess I could do that to save money.) I don't want to overnight in Takayama again. I've been 2x. I've been to Shirakawa Go, and I know a lot of people love it, but it was just all right to me, and I know my daughter would find it outside of possible craft opportunities boring.

I sort of like the idea of staying in a cabin not just for the price but the experience. My daughter has always wanted to go camping and it's like not!camping. I'd seriously think about a tent but I think with all the things we would need to rent (sleeping bags/bedding, something to cook with, etc.) it will be more expensive that I think.

I think you have several options.

Go directly from Kanazawa to Kamikochi on Tuesday.

If you take 12:56 train, you will arrive Matsumoto at 15:52.

http://www.hyperdia.com/en/cgi/en/search.html?dep_node=KANAZAWA&arv_no...

https://www.alpico.co.jp/tourists/en/kamikochi/route01/

Then catch 16:06 train to Shin-Shimashima and then bus to Kamikochi. You will arrive at 17:50.

If you take fixed tent, you can rent camping mats and sleeping bags.

http://www.nihonalpskankou.com/guidance#rental

But it can be rain, so staying at some ryokans will be safer.

If you start from Kanazawa on Wednesday, you can stay Wednesday and Thursday in Kamikochi, one night in ryokan one night in the cabin.

From Matsumoto to Koriyama it will take about 220 min and the trains run until late night, you can reach Koriyama even if you start Matsumoto in the late afternoon.

@Frod1954 hmmm...

What do you think of:

We add a day to Kyoto, before I was trying to maximize time in Kyushu, but technically outside of Kamikochi everything is now a day trip from Tokyo, so if I have a longer rail pass, I can go one of my spare Tokyo days.

On Monday pay out of pocket for a bus to Matsumoto (the day one, night buses are too late for my daughter, even though she probably could sleep on one. I admit, my bus experience is limited, but the one between Tsuroka and Yamagata was perfectly reasonable.) the bus station is right near the Keihan line, so easy for us. Transfer in Matsumoto and spend Mon night in Kamikochi, then spend Tues and Tues night in Kamikochi, spend as much of Wed as we want in Kamikochi and then go back to Masumoto. Matsumoto on Thurs and Thurs night we can spend in Matsumoto or Nagano. If we go to Nagano, start our pass then. Fri go to Kanazawa spend time there and Friday night in Kanazawa. Saturday spend all day in Kanazawa with enough time to get to Tokyo about 20:30ish, as we are staying in Shimbashi. Sunday we do our plans like usual, Monday we try to get into Ghibli, and if we can't go to Zenkoji since we have a rail pass. Tues we can go to Licca Castle and Wed do either Ghibli or Zenkoji and maybe Shinjuku Gyoen if it's Ghibli. It would depend on what we do each day. Thursday we leave. Before, I needed to do Licca Castle on Sat because my rail pass ended, but now the rail pass goes until Wed or Thurs. We'd lose Hakone, but I'm OK with that, I've been 4 or 5 times and my daughter once. She just wants to feed koi, I am sure we can find somewhere else to do so. We will go again another trip, though I loved all the hydrangeas.

With an extra day in Kyoto we can do more crafts there and that part of the trip won't be as rushed. I can tak-Q-bin my large bag for purchases from Kyoto to Tokyo and then manage to get it to either Haneda or NRT from my hotel.

Do you think Shinjuku Gyoen will have hydrangeas in bloom in early July? I've only been there for the start of sakura/momo and it was gorgeous. We love taking flower pictures, or are we better off going to Kamakura.

The out of the pocket of the bus wouldn't be all that different from the cost of a Hakone Free Pass and then I wouldn't have rail pass days in Kamikochi where it is useless.

Hi rkold,

As far as I searched there is only one daytime bus from Kyoto to Matsumoto.

http://www.alpico.co.jp/access/express/matsumoto_osaka/

京都深草 (Kyoto Fukakusa) 8:53 13:50 松本バスターミナル (Matsumoto bus terminal).

The fare for June is not announced, but I guess it will be 4360 yen for adult.

I think you have already searched where you should get on the bus at Kyoto Fukakusa. I googled and found the following blog which shows the way from Keihan Fujinomori station to Kyoto Fukakusa bus stop.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/torabus777/e/33b91e056de565ae85f23b69fdb0cacf

I believe the bus will take rest stops once per 2 hours.

I am afraid hydrangea might be over by early July (the peak should be around mid June) in Shinjuku Gyoen but there are many other flowers.

http://fng.or.jp/shinjuku/news/2017/07/
http://fng.or.jp/shinjuku/news/2017/06/

Also, late June is the flower season for Kamikochi.

Hi @Frog1954,

Thank you so much, I had thought the bus station was in a slightly different location. Google Maps is not as helpful as it could be. We're staying right near Keihan Gion-Shijo, so getting to Fujimori shouldn't be so hard. I'll plan to give us extra time. Having breaks would be lovely. I've taken the bus from Tsuroka to Yamagata, Yamagata to Zao and Aomori to Oirase and I think only the latter had some breaks. All 3 were quite pleasant and comfortable.

In 2017, there was a 14:07 train to Shinshimashima and then a bus from the Shinshimashima bus terminal at 14:45, arriving 15:50 at Kamikochi, It would give me a chance to find my tent, make an early dinner and see what there is to see. In the morning, we could move our bags to the hotel we plan to stay at the next night and then just explore.

And yes, that is one problem I find between Japanese websites and their English versions. On the Japanese ones, they have one date for flowers and on the English it's usually a later date. If there aren't hyndrangeas in Tokyo it's OK. If we add a day to Kyoto we can go back to Mimurotoji, though I will not go back on a Saturday or Sunday again. I have heard there are some lovely flowers in Kamikochi in June.

If we rent a fixed tent, I know what a blanket and tent mat are but what is a floor plate? I've been trying to figure out what we might need. Though maybe I will just rent a cabin and we can try camping in the future. I need to figure out how uncomfortable it will really be if it rains lol

Thank you!

I know what a blanket and tent mat are but what is a floor plate? I've been trying to figure out what we might need.

"Foam camping mat" is for "bed" on the ground. If there is no, the ground should be very hard and rugged. The blanket is for the warmth. I don't know how to use it: Maybe lay it on the foam camping mat or overlay on the sleeping bag.

Though maybe I will just rent a cabin and we can try camping in the future. I need to figure out how uncomfortable it will really be if it rains lol

Honestly, it's rainy season so you may better take cabin instead of fixed tent this time :).