usage of tara,nara and ba form

what are the differences for these three forms? They are similar yet very different in some areas so i'm nt sure when to use them.

Those conditional expressions and their differences in nuances/usages are still something I'm struggling to explain when asked by someone :) But let me give it a try. The following answer is an amended version of an answer that I've given in response to an earlier thread on a similar topic.

...tara
This "if"expression uses, with the verb "iku" as an example, the verb form of "ittara," which has an element of "itta," past or perfect meaning in it. So this one carries the meaning of: (1) "when one action *has* happened...," as well as (2) the equivalent if "if something happened..." the hypothetical IF conditional.
- Kyoto ni ittara, omiyage wo katte kite kudasai. (When you're in Kyoto/when you've gotten to Kyoto, please buy me a souvenir.)
- Kyoto ni ittara, oishii mono ga takusan taberaremasu yo. (If you go to Kyoto, you will be able to enjoy a lot of delicious food.)
- Kyoto ni iketara, ureshii. (If I could go to Kyoto, I'd be happy.) - In this case I took "...tara" form of "ikeru," "can go."

...nara
Taking the same verb for example, "iku nara":
- Kyoto ni iku nara, XXX ryokan ga ii desu. (If you are to go to Kyoto, traditional inn XXX would be good/my recommendation.)
"...nara" is like "if you are to...." another IF conditional, but referring more forward-looking than "...tara."

... ba
Taking the same verb, it would be "ikeba." This expression is used when you want to say things like "If you do A, the *natural consequence would be* B" type of "if" sentences. For example,
- Kyoto ni ikeba, furui nihon ga miraremasu. (If you go to Kyoto, you'll be able to see old Japan.)
- Nihon ga donna kuni ka, kureba wakarimasu. (You will understand what kind of country Japan is, if you (only) come.)

Having said all this, I do realize that they are quite close, and the differences are difficult to show with limited examples; please feel free to add or cite specific sentences that you fould confusing.

AK has given a very detailed explanation. Allow me to sum up everything then. ^_^

1) A tara B (where B is in present tense): If A, B. (No restriction to B)
Eg. Sensei ni kiitara, sugu wakarimasu. (If you ask the teacher, you will understand right away.)

2) A tara B (where B is in past tense): When A, B. (B is something unexpected)
Eg. Uchi e kaettara, uchi ga arimasen deshita. (When I got home, my house was gone.)

3) A nara B: If A, B. (B is a piece of advice/recommendation)
Eg. Nihongo no hon wo kau nara, Kinokuniya de katta hou ga ii desu yo. (If you are buying Japanese books, I would advise you to get it at Kinokuniya.)

4) A ba B: If A, B. (B must be non-volitional)
Eg. Nihon e ikeba, fuji san ga miraremasu. (If you go to Japan, you'll be able to see Mount Fuji)

that means that the ba form cannot be used on verbs except for areba and ireba?

AK and A-Z, thanks for explaining it so clearly to me. I greatly appreciate it..

---that means that the ba form cannot be used on verbs except for areba and ireba?---

No, it can be used on all verbs.

Eg.
iku (to go) -- ikeba
miru (to look) -- mireba
kuru (to come) -- kureba
suru (to do) -- sureba

Glad to help. ^_^

how about moshi?how do we use it since it means 'if' too.and sometimes,i hear people using 'moshi mo'.
can anyone help?

Moshi & Moshimo are the same. Indeed, they mean if/supposing. They are usually used together with tara (for verbs) or nara (for nouns).

Eg.
Moshi/Moshimo okane ga tarinakattara, dou shimasu ka?
(Supposing/If you do not have enough money, what will you do?)

Moshi/Moshimo ame nara, ikimasen.
(Supposing/If it rains, I will not go.)

wakarimashita.
thanks A-Z :)

Thanks everyone for the good post. How does the -to conditonal compare to -ba and -nara? I've heard it explained as a "logical if" like: If A (is true) then B (must be true). But I've also seen it used in other sentences that don't seem to follow this pattern.

1) A to B
B is a logical result of A. It has nothing to do with the speaker's will. Thus, expressions of intension, request, desire, order etc cannot be used.

Eg.
春になると、桜が見られます。○
まっすぐ行くと、右に本屋があります。○
日本へ行くと、旅館に泊まってみたいです。×


2) A ba B
If A & B are the same subject, B must be non-volitional. Otherwise, B can be volitional. If A & B are both actions/events, A & B generally can happen together. In cases where it is clear that B must occur only after A has taken place, "ba" cannot be used.

Eg.
早く起きれば、電話をします。×
(Hayaku okireba, denwa wo shimasu.)
田中さんが行けば、私も行きます。○
(Tanaka san ga ikeba, watashi mo ikimasu.)
今日勉強すれば、明日遊べます。○
(Kyou benkyou sureba, ashita asobemasu.)
部屋が広ければ、そこを借ります。○
(Heya ga hirokereba, soko wo karimasu.)
ベルが鳴れば、教室を離れてもいいです。×
(BERU ga nareba, kyoushitsu wo hanarete mo ii desu.)


3) A nara B
A is not a condition but an assumption. B is the speaker's opinion, volition, request/command or suggestion.

Eg.
日本へ行くなら、渋谷が一番いいです。
(Nihon e iku nara, Shibuya ga ichiban ii desu.)
日本へ行くなら、北海道へ行きます。
(Nihon e iku nara, Hokkaido e ikimasu.)
日本へ行くなら、日本語を勉強しなさい。
(Nihon e iku nara, nihongo wo benkyou shinasai.)
日本へ行くなら、言葉だけじゃなくて、文化も知っていたほうがいいですよ。
(Nihon e iku nara, kotoba dake ja nakute, bunka mo shitteita hou ga ii desu yo.)

Okay. Now I am the one seeing stars… (Lots of them)

(A-Z:) [is] In cases where it is clear that B must occur only after A has taken place, "ba" cannot be used…Nihon e ikeba, fuji san ga miraremasu. (If you go to Japan, you'll be able to see Mount Fuji) [ie]

What you (A-Z) mean is that if A did not take place, B cannot occur. So in the second example, I thought it is pretty clear that I can only see Mount Fuji AFTER I go to Japan? If I did not go to Japan, I am not able to see Mount Fuji.

(AK:) [is] ... ba "If you do A, the *natural consequence would be* B" type of "if" sentences
Kyoto ni ikeba, furui nihon ga miraremasu. (If you go to Kyoto, you'll be able to see old Japan.) [ie]
VS
(A-Z :) [is] B is a logical result of A. [ie]

Erm, I must admit that I can’t see the difference between ‘natural’ and ‘logical’. Allow me to give an example:

‘If you had listened to what I said, we would not be in this dangerous place now.’

‘Omae wa boku no hanashi de kikereba, ima kono kiken na basho ni imasen yo.’

’Omae wa boku no hanashi de kiku to, ima kono kiken na basho ni imasen yo.’

Which one should it be?

Actually, sometimes, the difference between these conditionals is just the implicit meaning, is it?

Eg: If you go to the library, please return this book.

1. Anata toshokan e ittara, kono hon o kaette kudasai.

So this sentence should be interpreted as ‘If you do go to the library…’ (with more certainty)

2. Anata toshokan e iku nara, kono hon o kaette kudasai.

So this should be read as ‘If you happen to go to the library…’ (Assuming you are going, with more uncertainty)

Hopefully, I can clear my doubts. Chotto baka de sumimasen. Onegaishimasu

Oh ya, and I would like to try making a conditional sentence with a few clauses. Please feel free to correct me.

If I had come early to school every day, studied well, and talked nicely to the teacher, I would not have been punished by him now.

Watashi wa mainichi ni gakkou ni hayaku itte, yoku benkyou shite, sensei ni yasashiku ieba, ima bassarenai yo.

Thank you, pai tuo ni men le. (Onegaishimasu)

‘If you had listened to what I said, we would not be in this dangerous place now.’

I would suggest:

-Anata ga watashi no hanashi wo kiite ireba, ima kono you na kiken na basho ni imasen yo.

In this case, you'd have to make it "if you HAD listened to..." so the verb tense would be different. For this, I would suggest the "ba" form (ireba) or "...tara" form (itara). In this example, "kiku to" would be a no-no. (Please don't ask me why, this is one area still I'm struggling to explain!)

If I had come early to school every day, studied well, and talked nicely (=politely) to the teacher, I would not have been punished by him now.

One suggestion:

- Watashi ga mainichi gakkou ni hayaku itte, yoku benkyou shite, sensei ni teinei ni hanashite itara, ima bassarete inai deshou.

About "talking nicely to the teacher," I suggest "sensei ni teinei na kotoba-dukai wo shite itara," (had I spoken with good polite speaking manner).

In this case, you'd have to make it "if you HAD listened to..." so the verb tense would be different. For this, I would suggest the "ba" form (ireba) or "...tara" form (itara). In this example, "kiku to" would be a no-no. (Please don't ask me why, this is one area still I'm struggling to explain!)

I guess "to" would be wrong in this case because it cannot be used for unreal conditional clauses? Things that happened in the past cannot be changed now. It's not a realistic choice to go back in time and act differently. So for all sentences with a pattern like "If I had done this or that (in the past)" it would be wrong to use "to" because "to" can only be used if the condition described in the sentence can actually be fulfilled.

e.g. If you push this button the door will open.
"kono botan o osu to doa ga akimasu." = right (because it describes a logical consequence of an action that can be accomplished)

but

for sentences like "If you had pushed the button the door would have opened." "to" cannot be used because even though a logical consequence is described the condition is an unrealistic one that cannot be fulfilled anymore.

Did I get this right?

Ok. Guess some things can't be differentiate distinctively. I guess I'll go by the concept then. Thanks anyway guys.

By the way, I found another website which offers explanation on this baffling topic. URL: http://www014.upp.so-net.ne.jp/nbunka/99jan.htm

I found some fascinating explanation which I would like to highlight.

-to: 2.An unpredictable event
3. A habitual event

-ba: Unlike the sentence led by "to"clause, "ba" is used in expressions which reflect the speaker's will,judgment, permission, view, order or request.
-In the sentence using ba, there is an opposite situation in speaker's mind.

Nara: It is used when the speaker addresses the topic introduced by the other person as the main theme. The sentence preceded by "nara" often expresses the speaker's advice, suggestion, requirement, or judgment.

I found this statement below too:
“We are expert Japanese teachers. We are confident that this article is good and useful for foreign learners of Japanese.”

Kinda interesting, huh? ;) Can anyone clarify this matter? Merci

akiko d[-_-]b says:
単位の意味は、授業日数
akiko d[-_-]b says:
たとえば、授業に何日でなければならないとか
akiko d[-_-]b says:
授業が５０時間あるとする
akiko d[-_-]b says:
５０時間＝５０単位
akiko d[-_-]b says:
その中で
akiko d[-_-]b says:
４０時間＝４０単位
akiko d[-_-]b says:
４０時間授業にでなくては、ならないってことになる

She's talking about studying at my school and her original question was "でもjoeの高校で単位がとれる？"

Perhaps it is because I'm in a rush to go out but I really have no idea what she is trying to say. Can you interpret it for me please? Normally I can do it myself but I'm already late for where I'm supposed to be going. This word 単位 makes no sense to me on its own and in its dictionary definition.

Didn't mean to post my question in this topic. I was in a rush at the time and made the mistake.

Hi there :)

Sorry for derping around, but I found a "nara" case sentence that I can't really understand....
Here is the type of sentence : "A ni nareba kiete shimau B ga".
I don't even know if B is the subject... it must be, since there's "ga", but there's an other sentence after it, with a verb referring to B. So, "ga" can be "but" ? :/
Plus, I would like to know if the verb(s) "kiete shimau" is accomplished by A or B.
Could you help me, kind people ? :)