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Futatsu or futari 2008/6/8 20:51
Hi,

Should I say 'futatsu' or 'futari' when I'm ordering food/tickets for two? I mean to say 'for two'.

Thanks!
by clarence somerset  

. 2008/6/9 01:17
food: futatsu is okay for most cases. For a course dinner, ninin-mae is more formal and appropriate.

tickets: futatsu is acceptable but nimai is more appropriate. e.g. Otona nimai (two adults).
by meringue4 rate this post as useful

Hitori, futari, sanin 2008/6/9 03:18
Hitori, and futari are used for people, and it carries on as sannin,yonnin, ect
by AEC149 rate this post as useful

Counting things 2008/6/9 20:58
Umm....it's certainly correct that hitori, futari, etc. are used for people. But in the case of ordering something, you are supposed to count things, not people. So futatsu used for things in general is, if not just fit in some cases, acceptable for almost everything
by mm rate this post as useful

the continuation 2008/6/9 21:28
Sorry, I've not yet finished on the above....

When counting sheets of something like tickets, using "numeral + mai" is appropriate as said on the other poster.
by mm rate this post as useful

adding on 2008/6/9 23:05
So would it be alright for non-japanese to use [hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, yottsu...] to count everything? even though there're other counters like mai, dai, satsu, chaku... i only took basic japanese and i'm afraid i will forget some of the counters when buying stuff. using the counter for general things would be much easier.
by cloud9 rate this post as useful

Counters 2008/6/10 00:45
I understand very well that it's quite hard for basic Japanese-learners to use various counters appropriately.

Though it will sound strange if a Japanese cannot use counters correctly, for a non-Japanese, it's ok to use hitotsu, futatsu, etc for everything when you forget suitable ones. At least, they would get what you mean.

To add one thing, it would still be better to learn to use ichi-dai, ni-dai, etc for cars or machines, and ippiki, nihiki, sanbiki, etc for animals, and ichi-wa, ni-wa, etc for birds as it's sound very odd to the Japanse ears when they are counted with hitotsu, futatsu.
by mm rate this post as useful

do and kai 2008/6/10 14:48
whats the difference between the counters do and kai? i get the other ones, but these ones elude me. thanks.
by lost rate this post as useful

do and kai 2008/6/11 03:55
Oh, that’s kind of a high-level question.

Basically, do and kai that are used for counting acts can be replaced with each other in general usage. But there are some exceptions as noted below:

[When “kai” can only be used]
1. With prefixes “dai” and “zen” (total) {e.g. “dai sankai xxxx kaigi” (The Third xxxx Conference)}
2. With decimal figure {e.g. “2.5 kai”}
3. With “…nitsuki” (at xxxx time(s)) {e.g. “ikkai nitsuki” }

[When “do” can only be used]
In specific idioms and proverbs {e.g. “Nido aru koto wa sando aru” (What happens twice will happen three times.)}

Strictly speaking, the difference also can be seen with regard to which counter is much more likely to be used depending on the act to be counted. But you don’t have to care about it if you are at elementary - medium level.
by mm rate this post as useful

do and kai 2008/6/12 07:03
thanks mm, that does clear things up a little for me.

and yes i am only a medium level student, so my japanese isnt to intricate or complex.

so would it be safe to just stick with kai for now? i tend to hear or notice this used more. maybe more examples could help too.

anyway thanks for replying so fast.
by lost rate this post as useful

do and kai 2008/6/13 22:56
so would it be safe to just stick with kai for now? i tend to hear or notice this used more.

You're right, lost. Generally, kai tend to be used more than do. So yes, I think you would be safer to stick with kai.

Yet, it may be better to keep it in your mind that do is much more likely to be used for deeds you cannot forecast the next occurrence such as:

victory (優勝 yusho), challenge (挑戦 chosen), experience (経験keiken), marriage (結婚 kekkon) / divorce (離婚 rikon) etc.
It is often said in a way like this: "3度目のxxxx (san dome no xxxx)".

I hope it could help you.
by mm rate this post as useful

do and kai 2008/6/15 21:06
hey! mm, honestly thanks for replying again.

ok, i think from what you have said i get a basic understanding, but it also brings up another question.

is there any relevance to past tense, or present tense with these counters?

it seems like "kai" is used for things i have done, and "do" is used for thing that....... im not sure how to say it, but like you said, "deeds i cannot forecast", so is that future tense? which doesnt really apply to japanese? it threw me off

thanks again! and any help is always appreciated

by lost rate this post as useful

tense 2008/6/16 00:56
Hi, lost.

No, there is no relevance to tense with counters at all.
Let me give you an example to explain deeds you cannot forecast the next occurrence.

Someone made his second marriage (2度目の結婚 nidome no kekkon). He is happy with a new wife now. But who can tell whether he won’t get divorced and married again in the future? That said, no one can forecast if the next occurrence of this kind of deeds will happen again. As the Japanese saying goes, "2度あることは3度ある," though. ;)

On the contrary, kai is much more used for deeds or events that are regularly held and you can expect the next occurrence like regular conventions / competitions (大会 taikai) and practices (練習 renshu).

e.g. "The 10th tournament was held / will be held." (第10回大会が開催された / される)
by mm rate this post as useful

to mm 2008/6/16 08:08
GREAT!!! ok that makes so much sense now.

i believe i have a intelligent understanding of these counters now. i will see if i can throw it in a conversation in a few weeks, when i hang out with the extended family.

you the man/ or woman haha

now to work on those dang particles haha, anyway THANKS A LOT for the lesson.
by lost rate this post as useful

adding more 2008/6/16 23:48
I' m glad I could have been of any help. But I noticed there was one more thing I should add on.

As I mentioned before, do is more likely to be used for nouns such as "yusho" in a way like - "kare wa sandome no yusho wo hatashita" (He won his third championship.)

However, when being used with "連続 renzoku (consecutive)", kai is far more used, even for "yusho" and other deeds you cannot forecast the next occurrence.

e.g. "kare wa sankai renzoku yusho shita" (He won his third straight championship.)

Sorry if I threw you off even more. Considering that you can also say "sankaime no yusho", I think I should say this once again, "you would be safer to stick with kai." Any way, you don't have to be so much sensitive about the usage of kai and do as there is not a big difference in using these counters.

BTW, I am a woman ;)
by mm rate this post as useful

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