confusion about keigo

I had another question concerning keigo, but I've decided to make a new thread for this. Please read on.

During my year of studying abroad in Japan, I once visited a Japanese friend in Tokyo and crashed at his place for a few days. During that time, at three different occasions, I had met three different friends of his. One was about a year younger than me (same age as my acquaintance), one was about my age, and another one was a few years older than me.

The thing is, when I met all three of his friends, I didn't use any keigo when talking to them. I thought, hey, if they're his friends, they're my friends, so there's no need to be all that formal, right? So let's forget about the keigo thing.

But little did I know that a few days later my friend severely (and by that, I do mean seriously) scolded me for not using keigo. He said how paramount it is in Japan to always use keigo, especially to people older than myself and to people I meet the first time.

Well, I already knew that. I mean, I had always used keigo when meeting people the first time in Japan, or when talking to strangers, or when in formal situations etc. So I just want to reassure everyone that I am absolutely familiar with the fact that you should always use keigo when meeting people, and I've always beeing doing so.

But as I've said above, I thought that when meeting my friends' friends, it was ok for me to skip the keigo and talk to them informally. I thought I could make an exception.

At the time I got scolded by my friend, I didn't tell him why I hadn't used keigo when meeting his friends, because I was so perplexed by how angry he was about the whole thing. He was literally going crazy and screaming all over the place. I just sat there and nodded my head, hoping he would soon just shut up and forget the whole thing.

What I did tell him, however, was that they didn't used keigo either when they talked to me. His answer to that was a very blunt 'that's because you didn't use keigo'

When I think about it now, did I really cause such a commotion by not talking to them in keigo at first? I mean come on, they were just his friends, not business colleagues or anything. And on top of that, only one of his friends was actually older than me. The other one was my age (as stated above), and the last one was younger than me. Maybe I should've used keigo to the friend who was older than me afterall, and I understand that, but what about the two other guys? In fact, shouldn't the younger guy have used keigo since I was older than him?

Since this had happened, I had gotten a little confused about keigo. In day to day situations, people, men or women, would just speak to me in regular keigo, to which I responded equally, but I think what also partially influenced me not to use keigo when meeting my friend's friends was that when I met with other people when going out, at bars or such, they would not always use keigo to me either, so I thought hey, maybe sometimes it's ok to skip using keigo afterall.

If anyone could give me their point of view on the story, I would be very thankful.

Whoops, sorry to hear of your experience.

I just want to be sure - sorry for asking such a basic question - when you say you did not use keigo, you mean you did not use "...desu/masu" at all (meaning spoke all in informal speech "...ru/da"), for you did not use "...irasshaimasu" and all that respectful expressions? Since this makes a big difference, I am asking first of all.

- If you are saying that you chose not to use "...irasshaimasu" and all those respectful expressions, it was only natural, because it was "friends' friends," though to the older one, you *could have.*

- If you are saying that you chose not to use "...desu/masu," then it could have sounded somewhat "too familiar." At times "...ru/da" forms can sound quite blunt, depending on how you phrase things.

But I don't get it that your friend got THAT upset about it - probably the older one said something about your speech, and your friend simply didn't like what he heard...

I think there may have been a discrepancy between your definition of friend and his. Where were these people from? For example, if they were old friends from back home or way back from elementary/junior high, I don't think he would have been as pissed off. If these were people for example, from his circle at university or some rigid organization, then that's a whole different story and I would understand his side of it. Do you remember how he was talking to the three friends?

Hi again

Let me first begin by responding to Kevin's questions.

The friend that was the same age as me, seemed to be one of his high school friends (btw, he (my friend) was in his second year of university at the time, forgot to mention that).
The guy that was younger than me I think was from his university. To these two he would just speak casually.

The guy older than me on the other hand, seemed to be his senpai. It seemed my friend was teaching at a local juku during the week, and had the older guy as his senpai. Now that I think about it, I remember how my friend spoke humbly to his senpai, and always used 'kudasai' when asking for things.

AK

Well, it was 辞書形/普通形 that I had used instead of the standard ます形. Since my friend himself used humble language towards his senpai, perhaps I should've done so too, but again, my motivation for not doing so was 'his friend is my friend'.

As for why he was THAT angry about all this, maybe it had to with more than just the keigo issue. I'm going a bit off topic here, but you may understand the situation better.

According to my friend, the keigo issue was just one of the things I had done wrong while crashing at his place for a few days (that came to me as a real surprise, I had no clue as to what else I had done wrong)

When I was talking to his senpai that evening (apart from speaking to him in 普通形), one of the things we had talked about was what kinds of music we liked. And my friend - in the same room as me and his senpai - sat there quitely listening to our conversation. Afterwards, my friend told me that I nearly only talked about my own musical interests, and hardly gave any space for his senpai to talk about what he liked. 'you talked about 10 things, and he only talked about 3 things' he had said to me.

As far as that goes, I didn't mean to only put the spotlight on myself in any way, I was just very enthusiastic about talking to his senpai about that topic, but unfortunately my friend hadn't interpreted it that way.

Another issue that may have had extra influence on his anger was when we went to the super market one evening for some grocery shopping. After we had paid for all the things, we put all the groceries into two bags. I carried one, and he the other. We had initially gone over to the supermarket on his motorcycle. When we hopped on his bike again and were about to drive back to his appartment, I told him 'drive carefully, alright?', seeing as we had two heavy bags to carry. That comment seemed to have pissed him off. On our way back, I felt like he was driving rather fast for two people carrying two heavy grocery bags on a motorcycle, so I told him not to drive too fast. That too, seemed to have got to him.

Afterwards he said to me in regards to the first comment I had made 'I was the one driving, plus I had a heavy bag to carry. That made it extra difficult for me. All you had to do was sit behind me on my bike while holding the other bag, so your comment about me having to be careful was inappropriate'.
And as for the comment I had made while on our way back, he said 'I wasn't driving too fast. The speed limit was 30, and that's how fast I drove. You shouldn't have told me to be careful, I didn't brake the speed limit'

The worst thing came at the very end. After he had explained all the things I had done wrong (keigo, grocery shopping), he said that all my actions were too non-Japanese, and that Japanese people didn't see me as a foreigner, but as a Japanese person, so I had to behave like one of them, and that all those things I had done wrong were just unacceptable. He then told me to understand that and change my ways and stop behaving like a foreigner. And if I wasn't willing to understand, he was going to beat me.

Well you know what? At the time, he was extremely menacing, and he really made me feel like I had committed several crimes against humanity, that's how horrid it was. As I've said before, I just sat there, speechless, baffled with what I was going through, but still agreeing to his every word, in the hopes that it would speed up his retarded lecture so I could go to bed and get some sleep.

That evening, I said to myself 'my god, if THIS is what all Japanese people are like, then they are all monsters. They're sick up in their minds, every one of them'

However, it's been a while since this happened, and after thinking about it more rationally, I think it would be wrong to believe that all Japanese are like that.

What I'm thinking now is that there must have been something very wrong with him and him only, that he must have been insane or something. Because quite frankly, if he was angry over the keigo issue, alright, I could understand that (although still, there was no reason to get as excited as he got), but to make SUCH a fuss over something that happened at the supermarket, is just beyond all my comprehension. Who in the right mind would worry about such meaningless issues?? It's absolutely mindblowing.

In my eyes, the fact that he had so much time on his hands to critisize every little thing I said and did, meant to me that he must have been a total idiot.
(on a side note, he was the first and only Japanese that had said to me that foreigners aren't seen as foreigners, but as Japanese. Every other person I had met so far told me the exact opposite).

Consequently, if he worried so much about such insignificant things like the supermarket indicent, surely the keigo issue must not have been such a big deal either, right?

That is why I wanted to know from people here on the forum if the fact that I hadn't used keigo to his friends really was as big a problem as he had made it appear.

I know I've gone off topic quite a bit, but I wanted to make sure that you understand what was going on.

whhAAATTT??
He said he would beat you?
That guys sounds totally nuts. I've never met anyone like that before, in Japan or anywhere else. Seriously, threatening to beat someone for telling them to slow down on a motorbike. And counting how many topics you talked about in a conversation?

Clearly there is something not quite right with him. I'd stay right away from him.

wow, I am speechless.
But yes, I think your "friend" was a little bit too dramatic... customs are very important in the japanese society, but hey, everybody can probably see, that you are not japanese and they would tolerate your behaviour. even if the senpai of your friend was that pissed of, as our drama-queen imagined, the senpai would not have hold a long music conversation with you. maybe he was just jealous?...
and maybe is it also very important in which part of japan you live.
i live in osaka, and the people are in general some kind of informal in using their language.
や・だ・る　is normal and I even can speak with the parents of my japanese boyfriend in short-forms!
actually, the father loves it to teach me new kansai-ben grammar or expressions...

sorry, that you met such a person. but good for you, that you have recognized, that he was one of the few exeptions.
good luck!
頑張ってねー!　(*^ー^)v

That guy sounds like a total smeghead. I think If I met somebody's friends I would initially be all formal with them but once I got to know them better I'd break out with the plain form.

Having said that, my school seems to be a magnet for Japanese exchange students and they always speak to me without the desu and masu, so I'm not actually sure. On the other hand, I took one exchange student to meet my Japanese friend that actually lives here. Their conversations consisted of desu and masu and the like. Most of the Japanese exchange students are meet really don't expect anyone to speak Japanese so most of the times they are surprised or shocked.

Thanks for sharing your views everyone

Greg the stop sign

Well, he wasn't going to beat me just for the motorcycle incident actually. He was going to do it for the totality of the situation, namely because my behavior wasn't Japanese enough. Also, he didn't really count the topics we talked about, it was more a figure of speech, but still, I believe it comes down to the same thing.

If it wasn't clear enough in the post, by the way, the reason he said he was going to beat me was in order to make me understand my mistakes. Apparently in Japan, if one doesn't understand something by mere words, force will be used to make that person understand. I for one, think that that is an utmost primitive solution...

S

My friend is originally from Yamanashi. Where his senpai was from I don't know.

I had known that friend (though I definitely don't consider him a friend at all anymore, that's for sure) for a number of years already. I'd never talked to him a lot, but he was actually my hostmother's friend's son. So I had had a little contact with over the years. But then that evening, he just turned on me. That's what shocked me most. There were some other things that happened too, but I think I've covered the essentials here.

So anyway, coming back to the main topic, can I conclude that even when meeting friends' friends, I have to use keigo at the very beginning at least? Like I said, some Japanese people address me in keigo when I meet them for the first time, but others don't. And when they don't it really confuses me because it makes me think back to that evening.

Well, your friend then was definitely being difficult, to put it mildly - I'd say he had other things in his life that were not going his way, and found in you some "excuses" to lash out. So don't take him as a typical Japanese :)

I'm going to comment about the speech forms issue here.

Well, it was 辞書形/普通形 that I had used instead of the standard ます形.

I'm glad I asked you exactly what kind of speech you were referring to.

"Keigo" is normally used to refer to "...irasshaimasu" and all those real respectful form/humble expressions. "desu/masu" is called "teinei-go" or "teinei-kei." And this "teinei-go" is nothing that is "formal," something you want to skip, but it's only "polite." WHenever you don't know what speech level to use with someone, use the desu/masu form to be safe.

Since my friend himself used humble language towards his senpai, perhaps I should've done so too, but again, my motivation for not doing so was 'his friend is my friend'.

If your friend was using humble expressions to his senpai, that sets the standard for you as well. So I'd say you should have used "respectful/humble" forms as well, at the least "desu/masu" normal polite speech.

It would have been better for you not to assume "his friend is my friend" approach :) Japanese people (generally) tend to use the word "friends" pretty broadly. We often do not differentiate between what in reality are just "acquaintances," people we happen to have met in school, work, etc., from true friends. So, while my "senpai" would not really be a "friend" (if I have to remain aware of who's senior and all that, no, he is not my "friend") I might refer to a bunch of acquantances like those people as "friends." (I am Japanese BTW.)

About "beating" thing, there is a saying "If your brain can't understand (something), I'm going to make you physically understand it." I guess that's just a way to say how angry he was... a pretty nasty and primitive way to put it though.

Having said all that, well, still I think something was definitly wrong with him at the time.

Hi again AK

Ah, I had completely forgotten about the word called teineigo. That's what happens when you don't speak a foreign language on a daily basis:/ Thanks for clearing that up

Yes, I now see that my 'his friend is my friend' way of thinking was wrong afterall. However, when the three of us were in his room, I was talking to his senpai most of the time, and my friend didn't really say much. He just sat on his bed and listened, so I hadn't actually heard him use much keigo you know.

Wait a minute, so if you refer to your acquaintances as friends too, when do you ever refer to them as 知り合い?

Yes, I know you're Japanese, AK, I've posted messages here before=)

Ok, so I know that I should've at least spoken to his senpai in teineigo, but what about his two other friends? The one that was my age, and the one that was younger than me. Should I also have used teineigo to the guy younger than me? Or shouldn't it have been the other way around since I was older?

What's still a blurry grey area to me is that I've met Japanese who didn't use teineigo to me either. Where they just being impolite, or was it justifyable for some reason? If they were older than me and didn't use it, shouldn't I also have been excused for not using teineigo to someone younger than myself?

Yes, I would definitely like to think that there was something very very wrong with him. Just to add a few more details, I remember how he was sitting on his bed, lecturing me across the room while smoking a cigaret nonchalantly and drinking his alcohol. There even came a point where he refused to even explain words in Japanese that I didn't understand. He would say 'this is Japan. We speak Japanese here. Speaking any other language but Japanese is strange!' (yet he himself often tried to speak English to me even though he knew it wasn't necessary).

Speaking of people you've met that talked informal from the start:

There are some people who use teineigo to almost everyone, and there are some other people who just go "act casual" with just about everyone. What you choose to be is your choice, but to be honest, I prefer to be (and recommend others to be) on the "polite" side. I don't know how fluent you are, but I have noticed that (unless you are quite young that any polite speech could sound too formal and stuck-up) informal speech used by non-fluent speakers *can* at times sound quite blunt, because the word ending, tone, etc. might be just not right. (Sorry for the generalization.)

He would say 'this is Japan. We speak Japanese here. Speaking any other language but Japanese is strange!'

Complete a****** (excuse the language!); forget about him :)

Hi AK

So ultimately, there is no real rule for when to use teineigo, you just recommend it to people? I guess that still makes it very vague to me.
Isn't it kind of weird to tell people that they should do something, but it's ok even if they don't?

I myself am unable to tell exactly how fluent my Japanese is, but I'm sure I say things sometimes with maybe a wrong intonation or so, that may confuse the listener. But I usually try to speak (or imitate) with the same intonation as the person who I'm talking to speaks (except if they're being rude of course).

I once had a shop clerk (who worked at a place called 'recycle centre', some kind of second hand shop or so) address me in casual Japanese only. I thought that was strange, especially since he was working in that shop and I was a customer. I continued to respond in teineigo, but he still kept on talking to me casually.

Well, at least for me, being polite is the way to go :)

It's like...someone coming to the US and learning English asks you, so which one is a better phrase for asking someone that you barely know, "Hey ya, how's it hanging?" or "Hi, how are you doing?" The choice would be obvious, I suppose.

Some shop clerks, hairdressers, etc. (where you are the customer) use informal speech, quite to my offense at times, feigning closeness/familiarity, or showing "I'm in the know here," trying to act as if they are a friend of mine. But (1) there are situations (such as this one) where informal speech is completely out of place, and (2) even among acquiantances/friends-to-be, distance between people is something you gradually close over time, through knowing each other, NOT something you try to jump-start and close in one go by talking in informal speech, if that makes sense :)

thanks for this topic. I've always been perplexed on when to use teineigo. Especially when it came to people my age I've just met. I knew to always use it for a senpai or someone older than me... But if someone my age used 辞書形 with me then I feel obliged to use it back. But then.. how much older do they have to be? And when do you know it's right to start using teineigo? Or should I indefinitely use teineigo??

Then there's the old men. おじいさん. When they talk to me it's always the る・だ form. And I reply back with ーます, but still.

Hi AK

So I was right to also feel offended when that shop clerk at the second hand store talked to me informally huh. It's interesting to hear that even among Japanese, there are issues about when it is appropriate to use formal language.

Well, I would probably not say 'how's it hangin' to someone I barely know, that's true. But I might say that if I meet a friend's friend. It's just a cultural thing I guess. Although that doesn't mean that I would talk to that person in a way that insults him. I would talk to them informally, but still keep a certain distance if you understand what I mean.

By what you've expained to me then, I'm assuming that even IF I meet people younger than myself in Japan, I should always just start off with teineigo, and then see how the situations evolves, right? (though it would be weird if I would use teineigo to a 13 year old kid or something, no?)

UreshiiMiko

Well, I think old men will often reply to you informally, because they're much older than you. I think it's good that you reply using more formal speech, since you're younger and all.

Yeah, I think you should probably always use teineigo to start off, even when meeting people your friends are familiar with (but not you), even though you would normally not address them that politely in English (see posts above), that's what I've learned from this.

I think, unless you ask someone how old they are, you wouldn't know whether you'd have to use teineigo, right? So the first thing you'd have to do is talk to them, and since obviously you meet them for the first time, you'd have to start off in teineigo anyways to ask their age.

Probably the safest thing you could do is ask the person you're talking to (if it's someone you will meet again) if it's ok to put aside the teineigo and start speaking casually. That way you'd know immediately. I don't know if asking 'can we skip the teineigo now?' is something that Japanese do, but as foreigners I guess that's the way to go. Those were my two cents.

D,

Well, yes, as a Japanese in my early 40s lol, there are cases where I feel like saying "hey, I've just met you, young man!" at times lol. I think different generations might react in different ways.

I know that for example German people (at least those over a certain age) always start talking in third-person formal word for "you," "Sie," first, then one day, if they get close, they would ask "can we switch to second-person informal "Du"?" it doesn't really happen that we *ask* about it, but it's simply getting the feel for it, I'd say :) And speaking of generations, I have heard that some younger Germans skip the whole third-person polite "you" altogether and start off informally :)

UreshiiMiko,

I quite agree with D's views on old men (they are your seniors in life, no matter what) and that you should start off with polite speech :)

Hi again AK

Ah yes, I know about the 'sie' in German. It is mandatory there to say that when first meeting someone. Same thing for France by the way. Using the informal 'tu' instead of the formal 'vous' would be a very big no no. But did you know that in Denmark, people hardly ever say the equivalent of 'sie' in Danish? It's something that has evolved over the past decades I think, but nowadays, hardly ANYONE in Denmark speaks that politely, it would be outdated. It may sound rude to other listening to them speak, but in their culture that's just how it has evolved. Do you think that Japan will ever become like Denmark one day, where practically nobody will be speaking formally to each other?


So you just need to get the feel for it you say huh. Well, I sure hope I will get that feeling someday.

BTW, I recall another meeting between two of my Japanese acquaintances once.They had only met each other for the first time, but only one of them used teineigo (even though they were the same age). Afterwards I asked one of him why the other used teineigo and he didn't. He said 'it's feeling', just like you said. On another occasion, one of those friends had met another one of my friends (again, same age), they started off in teineigo at first, but then about 10 minutes later, the teineigo was done away with. So confusing( '-_-)