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simple questions 2009/6/4 20:00
Hi. Sorry for the upsurge of questions lately...Learning Japanese on your own can be quite challenging. I'd just like to clarify three confusions I've been having.

1. aru/iru
To my best knowledge, aru and iru are ''to be'' for unanimate and animate objects respectively. Can they mean ''to have'' as well?

For objects I understand that we can use ''motte-imasu''. How about for say humans?

Eg: I have a friend.
Tomodahchi ga iru. (?)

(Would that carry the meaning of ''Tomodachi ga (koko ni) iru'' ?)

Or is there other ways of expressing this?

2. I encountered this slightly weird choice of particle while I was reading my novel yesterday.

自尊心の高い田中には...

I am puzzled as to why ''no'' is used there instead of a ''ga''. Or am I wrong?

3. Can the explanatory ''no'' be used with polite verbs?

Eg: Kikai ga arimasu no desu. (??)

Cuz when I read my textbook, they change ''arimasu'' to ''aru''

Similarly,

Eg: Tabemono de wa arimasen no desu. (/dewanai no desu)

As always, thanks for all your help.
by Zyzzyva (guest)  

... 2009/6/4 22:27
Let me start with the easy one :)

3. Can the explanatory ''no'' be used with polite verbs?
Eg: Kikai ga arimasu no desu. (??)


No. In Japanese, even in polite speech, only the LAST verb should be the polite (-masu/desu) form.
So it should be:
- Kikai ga aru no desu.
- Tabemono dewanai no desu.

2. With these kinds of expressions:
背が高い ("tall" but literally "high in height")
頭がいい ("smart" but literally "good in the head")
自尊心が高い ("with high self-esteem," literally "high in his self-esteem")
...can also take "no" instead as well.


For aru/iru, I'm sure someone else will come with a thorough explanation :)
by AK rate this post as useful

hm... 2009/6/4 23:24
No. In Japanese, even in polite speech, only the LAST verb should be the polite (-masu/desu) form.
Hmm...I encounter this example in my textbook though.

かぶきの切符がありますから、一緒に見に行きましょう

Is this an exception?
by Zyzyzva (guest) rate this post as useful

. 2009/6/5 05:25
That is because the first sentence is a senetence, it is simply followed by the 「から」 particle. It means because of, so the sentence would be something like "Because I have a kabuki ticket, let's go see it together."

For ある・いる, in the case of ともだちがいる、IMO it would mean "I have a friend." It could also mean "My friend is here." but it would depend on context.

For もっています、I am pretty sure it is for objects only...for humans, you would use と・といっしょうに.
by Firedraco rate this post as useful

RE: simple questions 2009/6/5 07:13
As to Question 3.:

: Is this an exception?
Not an exception, in my opinion. AK simply says "the LAST verb."
In this case, ます and ましょう are used in different grammatical phrases. あり is the only verb in the phrase ありますから in the first clause, and 行き is the last verb in the phrase 見に行きましょう in the second clause.

Usually, ます / です is not used twice in one grammatical phrase.
3a. ありますものですから / ありませんものですから is used, but this may sound too long or too polite.
3b. ありますですから / ありませんですから sounds to me not common.

3c. あるですから / ないですから may have a reverse effect to sound intrusive. This is used, for example, to focus on / emphasize a fact or to persuade someone.
3d. ありますだから / ありませんだから is no good.

In ありますから / ないですから, ので can replace から. But, in 3b. or 3c., ので can not be used instead of から.

As to Question 1.:

ある [aru] / いる [iru] itself doesn't mean possession, at least originally not.
ある / いる as a verb means existence, and when this is used to state one's thing / one's person exists, that can result in an expression meaning possession.
e.g.
1a. 彼には京都に息子がいます。 / 京都に彼の息子がいます。: He has a son in Kyoto.
1b. このホテルには別館があります。: This hotel has an annex to it.
1c. カナダに横浜の姉妹都市があります。: Yokohama has a sister city in Canada.

: For objects I understand that we can use ''motte-imasu''. How about for say humans?
For humans, I think いる is more popular than 持っている [motte iru].

I think ある (as a verb) more purely indicates existence than いる. I guess, to imply that a person lives, acts or so, not ある but いる is the word in many cases. いる is usually used for animate ones. Sometimes いる is used also for the dead. e.g. 死者が五人いる刑事事件: a criminal case with five dead persons

As to Question 2.:

2a. 自尊心が高い。(sentence): Self-esteem is high.
2b. 自尊心が高い田中: Tanaka whose self-esteem is high
2c. 自尊心の高い田中: Tanaka whose self-esteem is high

In each of 2b. and 2c., 田中 is (attributively) modified by the preceding phrase.
A phrase {noun / pronoun X } が / の {adjective / verb / adjectival verb} can be used to modify noun / pronoun.
When の is chosen, the phrase alone can not make a complete clause or sentence.
e.g.
紅葉 が / の 美しい山: a mountain with beautiful colored leaves
彼ら が / の 支援する候補: a candidate whom they support
天然資源 が / の 豊かな国: a country with rich natural resources

Note: When an adjective or a verb is chosen, X must be grammatical Subject.
However, when an adjectival verb is chosen, X can be Object or Subject, which sometimes makes the expression ambiguous.
e.g.
金持ちが嫌いな人々 / 金持ちの嫌いな人々 (嫌いな is an adjectival verb)
.... 金持ち can be Object or Subject.: people who dislike the rich or people whom the rich dislike
Cf.
金持ちが嫌う人々 / 金持ちの嫌う人々 (嫌う is a verb)
.... 金持ち is Subject.: people whom the rich dislike

//
by omotenashi rate this post as useful

hmm...... 2009/6/5 17:14
Great explanation. I just have one follow-up question.

. ありますものですから / ありませんものですから

Now that this example is pointed out, I'd like to take this chance to ask a lil more about it. Why did you use "mono" there? Or rather, what does it mean here? Is it actually "mo-no" (as in adding a "mo" to "no".)?

Cuz I've seen sentences ending with "mono" or "mon" (which presumably is the contraction of it.) and until now, still not sure what they really meant.

Thanks.
by Zyzyzva (guest) rate this post as useful

RE: hmm...... 2009/6/8 22:13
: I've seen sentences ending with "mono" or "mon"
I think of one case, where もの [mono] is used to informally state reason with some feeling.
Case 4-1.
- びっくりした。(だって)五年ぶりに現れ [araware] て、いきなり名前を呼ぶんだもの。: You surprised me. 'Cause you suddenly called my name, appearing after five years' absence.
- 子どもじゃないんだもん、彼女はそんなことは自分でするでしょう。: For she's not a child, she will do by herself such a thing.
... To me もん sounds more informal than もの, and ですもん sounds somehow more broken or dialectal than だもん.

もの [mono] in this can be regarded either as a particle for reason or, as a noun used with its normal meanings lost. The latter is a usage common to some nouns, which is also mentioned below.

: Why did you use "mono" there? Or rather, what does it mean here? Is it actually "mo-no" (as in adding a "mo" to "no".)?
Not も-の [mo-no] of two words, but もの [mono] of one word. It's a noun, and usually it is written in hiragana. Practically it means nothing in this example.
Dictionaries list at least two もの [mono] (of the same origin) which could be written in kanji. 者 [mono] can mean a person or party as in "the third party," and 物 [mono] can mean a thing, material or so. In addition, the latter もの [mono] is also used with its normal meanings lost.

Also nouns such as こと, ところ, 段 [dan] may be used in this way. e.g. 彼女はうどんを食べたことがない。: She has never tasted udon. この事実はすぐに皆の知るところとなった。: This fact was soon known to everyone. 失礼の、おわびします。: I apologize for my rudeness.

There are even cases where もの [mono] of this usage subtly works. Implication may change by situations, the tense of the verb and/or the particle for Subject.
Case 4-2.
- ちっちゃい子泣くものだ。: A little kid is to cry.
... もの here works to imply "it's natural." For this implication, a particle が can not be used for Subject, and だ or です may sometimes be omitted.
Case 4-3.
- 彼と私よく飲みに行ったものだ。: He and I used to go for a drink.
... もの-だ here works to increase feeling of recalling.
Case 4-4.
- 彼面倒なミスをしてくれたものだ。
... もの-だ here may increase exclamation, like "What a tiresome mistake he made!" in this example. In this case, when もの-だ ends a sentence, the particle も for Subject doesn't mean "also"; when もの-だ is followed by から for reason, both が and も (="also") can be used for Subject. However, if the particle is が and もの-だ ends a sentence, that expression can be taken as one of Case 4-3., where the speaker rather recalls than laments.

//

by omotenashi rate this post as useful

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