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De or Ni? 2010/6/10 19:09
Hi

I found this sentance in a book I am studying from: [ ABCフーズではじょせいのぶちょうは佐々木さんがはじめてです。 ] which I translate in English to something along the lines of'At ABC Foods, Sasaki san is the 1st department manager'.

What I don't understand is, why is it not 'に' in this 2nd sentance : [ ABCフースにはじょせいのぶちょうは佐々木さんが初めてです。 ] ???

To my current understanding of locations in Japanese, で is used to mark the location of an action or event, whereas に is used to identify the location of where something exists, or indicate a state of being (e.g. イギリスに住んでいる).

Surely then with the sentance "Sakaki san is the 1st department manager at ABC Foods" - this is talking about a state of being at ABC Foods, and should therefore take に...but aparently not!

Can anybody explain/help?

Thanks

Andy
by annascott  

An attempt 2010/6/11 10:28
It is the same use of "...de" as in:
- Fuji-san wa Nihon de ichiban takai yama desu. (Mt. Fuji is the highest mountain in Japan.)

So it has the function of limiting the scope - "(with)in Japan," "(with)in ABC Foods." "(the tallest mountain) in Japan," "(the first) in ABC Foods." So it is more of scope for comparison within a certain range, rather than the place of action.

By the way, the original sentence says: "Sasaki-san is the first female department manager at ABC Foods," or "Sasaki-san is the first female to become a department manager at ABC Foods."
by AK rate this post as useful

. 2010/6/11 11:29
Your understanding is correct.
"de" is used when the place is where the action/movement is.
ABCフーズでは、じょせいのぶちょうは、佐々木さんがはじめてです。=
At ABC Foods, Sasakisan is the 1st female department manager.
vs
ABCフーズには、佐々木さんという初めてのじょせいのぶちょうさんがいます。=
At ABC Foods, there is the first female department manager, whose name is Sasaki.

In the garden I smell flowers=
庭では花の匂いを嗅ぎます。
I swim in the ocean=海で泳ぎます。
"ni" is used for the place.
In the garden there are flowers.庭には花があります。
Fish is in the ocean=海に魚がいます。
I hope this un-clarify a little.
by ay (guest) rate this post as useful

Re 2010/6/29 02:16
Hi guys

Sorry for the late reply.

I actually figured out the answer minutes after I made the post - it was a bit of an oversight on my behalf.

Yes - it says 'de ha' because it is an abbreviation of '...(no naka) de' as in the fuji example.

So the sentance actually translates as something closer to "Amongst/within (etc) ABC foods Ms Sasaki is the 1st section chief" etc rather than 'in ABC Foods'. Apologies!

Andy
by annascott rate this post as useful

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