Gaijin says no point learning Japanese

Is studying and becoming Japanese a futile pursuit? Why study a language to access a culture of people who will never accept you because you are foreign?

There is one fellow I met recently who thinks that westerners would do better NOT to learn Japanese. He has been in Japan for over 15 years and never bothered to learn the language at all, and he seems proud of this, or rather he says there is no point in doing so because no matter how well you speak Japanese you won't ever be ACCEPTED. He said certainly learning Japanese would make everyday practical matters easier, but
any foreigner studying the language out of interest is absurd and a joke because the language itself is not a gateway to the Japanese culture. They are better off speaking pure English because in Japan you will have an elevated status as a business traveler or visitor.

I have to admit everything he's said has put a damper on my enthusiasm for learning Japanese. I simply want to be able to consume their cultural output firsthand (manga, TV dramas, books), hence why I study the language. He could not understand this.

This I find to be a very pessmisitic and dreary view of Japan and Japanese culture. Is modern Japanese society really so xenophobic? Why even try to learn the language of a culture that actually dislikes YOU simply because you are NOT JAPANESE?

I mentioned success stories such as Dave Specter who speaks Japanese with perfect accent and is respected for his opinions, and he turned it around and said he was only famous because of his Japanese speaking abilities. Like he was some circus animal.

I really don't know how I feel about Japan anymore... I need to hear some other opinions.

Is studying and becoming Japanese a futile pursuit?

It depends on the person and his personal and professional plans and his personal attitudes. If you want to get integrated in Japanese society, live a normal life and cause no problems to the people around you, you must learn Japanese. But if you are an expat, who intends to stay in Japan only temporarily and does not mind an isolated lifestyle in his expat community, there is probably no reason to learn the language if there is no personal interest in the language.

Your friend's attitude is utterly beyond my imagination. He sounds like a colonialist from the old 1800s.

It is absolute nonsense that a foreigner is not accepted in Japan. If the foreigner does some effort to integrate himself, he will be accepted by his surroundings. Depending on his attitude, it might even be easier for a foreigner to be accepted by his new neighborhood than for a Japanese person moving into a new neighborhood. It also depends on the region. In rural areas where human relations are still maintained, it is probably be easier to get integrated than in alienated large city districts. But even in the latter, you will get accepted by doing some effort.

The most important key to get accepted as normal person is, of course, to learn the language.

Key number two is to keep a good attitude. Don't be an ugly expat. Accept and follow local customs. Be respectful.

If you want to have a good time in Japan, I strongly recommend to limit contacts with ugly expats like the one who did not bother learning the language of his host country for 15 years. Contact with such people will influence your own attitude. And THAT attitude will makes it very difficult to get integrated. You end up living in the expat bubble.

Don't let this one person make you upset and keep you away from learning!

I was in Japan 3 times now and I have experiences with no Japanese, Basic Japanese and Advanced Japanese.

People are friendly to you, even if you can't speak their language. And you are not hated because you are a foreigner. That's stupid. Sure there are some people who dislike them, but there might be reasons for that. Some foreigners simply can't behave in Japan. You will see once you are there.

If you can speak some Japanese the most people will be happy and maybe a bit astonished. If you can do more you will see that the people will have conversations with you.

Keep up your learning and don't let it take away from you by an idiot.

Is studying and becoming Japanese a futile pursuit? Why study a language to access a culture of people who will never accept you because you are foreign?

Well first of all I think you're starting with flawed logic. Studying the Japanese language and becoming a Japanese citizen are two very different goals. Millions of people study the language to very high levels without any aspirations of becoming Japanese.

And your second question revolves around the mistaken assumption that social acceptance is impossible to achieve in Japan. It is completely possible and hinges more on your approach and attitude more than on language ability or perceived prejudices.The onus is on you, and language is the first tool at your disposal.

There is one fellow I met recently who thinks that westerners would do better NOT to learn Japanese. He has been in Japan for over 15 years and never bothered to learn the language at all, and he seems proud of this, or rather he says there is no point in doing so because no matter how well you speak Japanese you won't ever be ACCEPTED. He said certainly learning Japanese would make everyday practical matters easier, but any foreigner studying the language out of interest is absurd and a joke because the language itself is not a gateway to the Japanese culture. They are better off speaking pure English because in Japan you will have an elevated status as a business traveler or visitor.

There are many strategies concerning foreign residents and their Japanese language ability, and in my opinion this guy has taken the lazy route, and is just rationalizing his choices. I've been in his position where English was all that was necessary for my job and social circle, but the difference is that I can see that there are limitless connections I'm missing due to a subpar language ability.

Sure you can live just fine in Japan without any Japanese, but it requires the people that you interact with make an extra effort in their share of the communication to make up for your inadequacies. By extension it means that you are not contributing fully to your half of the conversation and are missing out on all kinds of opportunities that maybe this guy simply isn't aware that he's missing.

I have to admit everything he's said has put a damper on my enthusiasm for learning Japanese. I simply want to be able to consume their cultural output firsthand (manga, TV dramas, books), hence why I study the language. He could not understand this.

Don't let him get you down. Not understanding your motivations for learning Japanese is his problem not yours.

This I find to be a very pessmisitic and dreary view of Japan and Japanese culture. Is modern Japanese society really so xenophobic? Why even try to learn the language of a culture that actually dislikes YOU simply because you are NOT JAPANESE?

Where are all these negative thoughts coming from? Is it actually what you're experiencing while on your trip in Japan, or are you worrying over what you've heard from expats. If its the latter then ditch them and get out and experience Japan on your own. Make your own judgments, and go out with an open mind and a positive attitude and I guarantee you'll have a better experience than someone who lives in a country for 15 years with the attitude of that there is no point in trying to fit in.

Okay, I would be a hypocrite if I said becoming fluent in Japanese made life in Japan easier or communication with the locals that much more enriching. Wanting to get a piece of JPN culture and broadening your perspectives is great, but there is a disadvantage in becoming too good at Japanese -- namely, Japanese will make you play by the rules of (obsolete) respectful speech, humble speech, tatemae, customer-facing speech and other cultural/social shades of gray. It's a pain in the butt and you still won't be accepted for your efforts.
I've come to know Japanese as a "living language", "living" in that it is only "alive" when other Japanese are around. Exceptional Japanese speaking foreigners, even like Dave Specter and Pak-kun, are revered for their tongues, not how smart or Japanese they may be, and represent what I feel is a circus animal mindset Japanese have towards outsiders able to speak fluent JPN. Thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

However, from a personal viewpoint, I am proud that I studied my pants off and have become more or less a fluent Japanese speaking foreigner living in Japan for two reasons: I studied my pants off for myself - mainly so I could read/watch Japanese media without the watered down subtitles (no offense to those who make them). Also, I love being able to show off that I can understand Japanese and fire back in Japanese when other foreigners can't. All ego, but at least I'm honest.
But the novelty effect Japanese ability has on people gets old really quickly - too many business nomikais, kouryuukais and mail-tomos have taught me that.
In conclusion, I don't feel closer to Japanese culture, etc. and having majored in Japan in Uni, I haven't learned anything new with the language under my belt than when I didn't speak a word.
I don't see it useful for business, other than making business more expensive to conduct.
I don't see it as a necessity for living in Japan as there are many people with long and even successful track records living/working in Japan.
I wouldn't be too discouraged by his complaints, but at the same time, I think he's probably jealous that he hasn't the will or the patience to get better at Japanese himself, like a 40's something spinster wishing she'd gotten plastic surgery, but that's him. Learn it for yourself. If you don't want to end up like that guy, just keep at it and get as much from it as you can without turning bitter 15 years later. At least you have a simple reason to learn; media consumption.

Hi again, Soaringshrimp,

I don't think Mr. Specter himself would deny that he is a circus animal. That's the very character he is aiming for, and he knows he has a strong accent, too. Those are the very aspects he is popular for. And we mustn't forget that Pak-kun is a stand-up comedian.

But there are other people like rock guitarist Marty Friedman, enka singer Jero, professor Robert Campbell, cinema critic Lilico and many more who all have worked very hard to speak their accent-less, flawless Japanese and to be accepted in the media more for their artistic or academic skills rather than for their foreign background.

Actually though, I don't think it's that you get accepted as you learn the language. I believe it's the other way around. It's that if you keep trying to be accepted, merge with the locals and try to catch their jokes and slangs, then as you do that you automatically learn the language. Meanwhile, some people just aren't good at foreign languages. No matter how well they merge, they don't absorb new expressions as much as others may do. But still, they end up being friendly and understanding people for the local community.

So if you like Japan and Japanese culture, just keep that curiosity lifted. You can deal with expats but try to deal with those who can encourage your curiosity. Talk to those who have learned the language so that you can look up to them. And if you end up not learning the language, so what? Don't let that pressure you. Just try to make your life here worth while.

And you can get away not learning the language, but you won't know what you're missing unless you do learn it.

They are better off speaking pure English because in Japan you will have an elevated status as a business traveler or visitor.
BS, first of all. This sounds like a lousy excuse by an expat who decided to live in his tiny protected bubble of his office in Japan, and that's all that matters to him. And this is the best approach "not to" get accepted by the local community/society.

He could not understand this.
Well, so this means he is not interested in soaking up any culture different from his own. You are. So, why listen to him?

That being said.

Learning the language does not make you "Japanese," if you know what I mean. You are a foreigner. But once you've got a grasp on the language, you'll be a person with the means to understand the locals, communicate with the locals, in other words, who can mingle with others in his own surroundings, who is open to people different from yourself. That opens doors. That is the way to acceptance by others :)

My husband (European) has been living in Japan - for a total of approximately 20 years by now, I'd say, starting from his language student days back many years ago. Yes, there was a period when he was here as an "expat," and I know some of his colleagues who would not even try to learn the language.

He does have a good grasp of the language, works with it, lives here comfortably using the language, BUT still knows that he is a foreigner. But that does not mean he is "disliked" or anything. He is part of this neighborhood as a friendly guy who lives with a Japanese wife, who buys a lot of vegetables in the local shop, and who seems NOT to be one of those short-term "expats" who live here a few years then leave, but seems to be one of those that stay because he likes it here. He would never pretend to be a "Japanese," but he lives here as part of the local community. Isn't that... what matters?

The guy who wrote the article might be happy to be still considered a visitor or business traveller after 15 years here, but for most of us that wouldn't work. Virtually none of my lifestyle as it stands would be possible without Japanese language skills- I wouldn't be able to teach my yoga classes, do my translating work, speak to my in-laws or a lot of my friends, or just get along from day-to-day as easily as I do now if I didn't speak/read Japanese. I might not even be married to my husband- he does speak English, but we communicate in a mix of both languages which I'm sure is much easier on him than if he had to speak English all the time and constantly babysit me because I couldn't understand basic instructions or find anything if it was written in Japanese.

I don't know what this guy means by being (or not being) "accepted into Japanese society", but I certainly don't feel shunned, so...? It is true that a non-Japanese person will not be seen as Japanese no matter how well they speak the language, but a Japanese person who has lived in my home country (New Zealand) for 15 years wouldn't be considered a New Zealander, either, and probably wouldn't really be bothered by that.

How would this guy know what it's like to be able to speak Japanese in Japan anyway- it appears he has never had the experience! To me it just sounds like he tried for a while, found it too hard, gave up in disgust, and now is massively defensive about it so has come up with a very complicated justification.

His opinion in no way represents that of most foreigners in Japan, don't let it bother you.

Sorry, I see you actually spoke to the guy rather than read an article- I missed that somehow. Same still applies.

Do you really feel actively disliked by people around you here? I don't.

Why do you care what this person thinks?

Why should it affect your reasons for learning the language?

ok simple and short
i've lived here for 3 years now. if you want to learn Japanese I say go for it. It will make your life a bit easier in Japan.
However in my experience at work (I work at a language school), shopping, hanging with friends, traveling on trains, etc...I never really use Japanese. why?
1. There are a lot of English signs at the stations and there are a lot of picture menus at restaurants
2. 90% of my japanese friends don't want to speak Japanese and want to improve their English.
3. at work, i am discouraged from using Japanese and told to use only English

Im not saying you shouldn't, I'm saying that if you don't it will make your life a bit harder. Knowing katakana and some kanji and hiragana, and phrases will take you a long way. So i say learn as much as you can

From a Japanese' s viewpoint.
If I meet a foreign guy who has been in Japan for over 15 years and never bothered to learn the language at all, I would never like to make friends with him.
Honestly, I don' t like those guys who live in Japan and dare to speak to me in English from his very first words. I would feel a bit offended.
Being proud of being unable to speak in the local language? Huh!

AK said, ''Learning the language does not make you ''Japanese,'' if you know what I mean. You are a foreigner.''

If you're American (like me) and have spent almost your entire life in America, this is a strange concept. There aren't many places like this where once you decide to stay you're an American, at least in the eyes of the vast majority of Americans. Most countries are pretty homogenous and it's part of what defines the country and the people. America is a bit wierd because of the 'melting-pot' idea. (Yes, some groups have taken longer to integrate, and we've done some pretty stupid things to people who should have been treated like the rest of Americans.... I'm just talking in general.)

It can be really tough to accept that it's not the way most of the world works when it's all you know. It's both good and bad in some ways. I work with people who were born all over the world - 'Foriegner' isn't something that really comes to mind. But if you can't deal with the fact that in most of the world a person's nationality has different, but equally as strong meanings, and just get bitter about it....

If you were to move to Japan it would be best to try to be accepted for who you are, instead of trying to be a Japanese person. Enjoy the fact that it is different. Yeah, the old guys in the black vans with the loudspeakers on top are going to hate you, but that's what they do. Just find that happy medium between the black van guys and the creepy girls who hunt for foriegn guys and try to find a place with the rest of the country. The normal people are just that, normal people. Even if they do eat poisonous fish for fun. ;)

I'm going to have to say that guy is full of himself.

Another poster said riding trains etc is fine without english. Try asking a more complex question about routing of commuter passes at your local small station next time.

For daily living I find knowing Japanese to be very important even when living in a city like Tokyo. Even knowing the basics of Japanese goes a zillion miles more then zero Japanese. If I didn't know zero Japanese in Japan I would not be able to fill out application forms for various services.

Or the other month I went to Softbank shop in Omotosando, they have a "English" assistance table, the wait time was "45 minutes", I told them I'll just speak to a regular table in Japanese, told them my problem in Japanese and got everything resolved with my phone in a few minutes. If I waited in the English line I would of still of been waiting...

I went to the local clinic back in December because I had a very bad cold (I thought it was the Swine flu!), no English speakers there either. Spoke and talked to them in Japanese explaining my problems. My Japanese is not the best in the world, but even learning basic to intermediate Japanese I am able to communicate my problems about coughing and aches. Got a prescription and directions to the pharmacy. The doctors and staff were very nice (not xenophobic and didn't treat me).

I wouldn't give that guy (in the first post) a grain of thought when it comes to your decision to learn Japanese or not.

They are better off speaking pure English because in Japan you will have an elevated status as a business traveler or visitor.

That the biggest BS I have ever read in my life.

The fact is, if you can start communicating and speaking even in basic Japanese, things become a lot easier.

I also found that line particularly ridiculous. Who wants to be treated as a visitor when they have been in Japan for more than 10 years? I certainly don't, and due to having reasonable language skills, 99% of the time I am not treated that way.

that gaijin you met is a loser, pure and simple. sounds like a roppongi gaijin.

he is right - he'll never be accepted because he cannot and will not learn japanese.

other foreigners can and are accepted because they make an effort to learn japanese. he does not know this because he's never even bothered to try.

what a loser!

and in reply to the english teacher above that thinks his friends don't "want" to speak japanese - think about the kinds of people you are surrounding yourself with!!

there are 130million other japanese people out there, most of them do NOT speak ANY english and a good chunk of them have no interest in it whatsoever. but you have no access to them because you can't communicate with them. so you're stuck with the ones that want to practice english on you. think about it!

life outside of central tokyo is totally different guys, i really suggest you get out of the cities and tourist traps and see what this place is really all about.

I was really badly teased and made fun of when we Americans tried to learn Japanese, so we quit trying.
But this was our loss. You should try to speak and learn and I'm sure it will make your stay more enjoyable. Don't listen to that guy.

Catfish, have you lived in another country than the USA for over 10 years? Many of us that have lived in a foreign country for many years still feel, and will always feel, at least a bit foreign. Even if we speak/ read / write as well, or nearly as well, as locals and know all the common colloquialism, the culture etc.

We feel foreign because not just the language itself but holiday celebrations, local sports, history etc. were not part of our formative childhood years, when our individual personalities were being formed.
This is made obvious when people ask in a survey, interview etc. "what memories do you have about your first hockey match, Thanksgiving, graduation party.." my answer can only be DUH???

By the same token when we go back to our native country we are also foreigners. The language as evolved over there and we don't "get" the current "in" expressions etc. Even if we follow their news on TV , internet etc. we haven't lived these events, don't know all the background.
As a matter of fact speaking English come more naturally to me now that speaking my mother tongue. I can read the later very well but have to think a bit in order to find the right word when talking and writing. This is not just me.. friends have the same problem.

As for being accepted...it is the same in every country. When my parents moved 100 km away in their own native country they weren't accepted by quite a few at first...

North Americans will call you buddy and all that..but we--born abroad-- feel the invisible glass wall...except of course with a true friend...
Come to think of it, all my North American friends are people that have either lived abroad for at least several years, or travel extensively abroad, so we all have that experience of being a stranger in a strange land.

It isn't a bad feeling actually..it is a bit like being on a very long working holiday..