going dutch

It's called giving not buying, Tilt.
And she'd like you in return.

First of all, stop thinking what that guy was thinking. Because you were not him, you would never know.

But you Clueless you know exactly what you were thinking.

You should not be shocked when you say were whole-heartedly wanting to pay for your share ,and he accepted your offer.

You were shocked because you weren't expecting to pay for your share of the meal in the first place. Your offer was just a test.

He might be too shallow for not treating you that cheap meal. But then again, you might be too shallow judging him just by this "payment" incident along.

If you like him (his other qualities), just keep going out, having fun with him.... and expecting to pay for your share... and be happy about it.

Yes, if "a guy buying you food" is such an important issue for your, ditch him.

In my experience when a Japanese person says something casual like... "lets go out and get dinner" (etc etc) this translates to them paying the bill.

When you say the same thing to them, its expected that you`ll pay.

Maybe i just have generous Japanese friends... but i`ve always been pretty safe following the rule that the organiser pays.

Aopo - I might have been testing when I offered to pay and that explains the shock (althought maybe surprised is a better choice of word). I wasn't reluctant to part with my money or anything or I won't have offered, but I guess I was half expecting him to reject. So maybe in that sense, yeah, you could say I was insincere.
The thing is, as I've mentioned before, whenever I go out with guys back home, my offers to pay my half has always been rejected - they always say next time I pay but when the next time comes, they still pay. I'm not a free-loafer or an incredibly greedy pig. The alternative would be not to go out at all, which I think would be very drastic or anti-social.
But anyway, coming back to this incident, I guess I just wanted to know what others think about it, and whether it's the norm here in Japan. Whether he's interested or not, I guess only he would know, right?

For CC

The world does not alwys revolve around money. I l;ike the japanese style of going dutch. It makes a lot of sense. After some sort of relationship has been establ;ished then of course paying for your babes meal is GREAT. You come across as being a bit of a material girl. No money no honey!!!! is that what you subscribe to.
Money cannot buy love and you could be better off if you lowered your expectations. Ladies that get money hungry and want men to pay for them are problamatic women. For the guys out there, show the ladies who and what you are and stay away from the rubbish

For: cheap....OK Krazykev

If the world doesn't always evolve around money why are you so fixed on going dutch?
If a person invites someone out to dinner, that person customarily pays for the dinner unless it was offered to pay by the other person who has been asked out to dinner. You want to go dutch, you better mention that to your date before you take her or him out. What? Are you afraid you would get rejected? It's not fair to your future date if you don't mention the magic word "dutch" before and wait until the end of the date. It would be as though using this method as a bait to get a date from a person who doesn't know about the "dutch system" but you're making her pay for it afterwards. It's inappropriate.

Well CC..........I am a straight talker and would mention straight away that by having dinner together is nothing more than getting to understand each other better. I will then tell her that we WILL be going DUTCH. If there and then she were to reject my offer..........great because I got rid of the bullshit before we even go to another level. I am Australian and treat the women the same as men. J girls have their own cultural nuances and if they cannot see where i am coming from............their loss. There are tooooooooooo many gaijin out there in Japan that get taken for a ride by J girls and mislead them into thinking that she might even put out for him if he pays. SUCKED IN............
I am not one of those idiots and will never be. I and many other men have some great qualities and all of these qualities can be observed without having to pay for dinners etc etc etc.

Have fun babe

Well, my personal experiences...

Girlfriend A, I went out with her and paid for everything. I was happy in the beginning, but she always wanted to go to more expensive places. I could afford it (but just barely). And when we were going out, i had to worry where we would be going to and how much that would cost both of us. At the end, i had to break up with her because I thought I really can't afford it in the long run, although i didn't say that reason to her.

Girlfriend B, I started out "going dutch" with her. I wanted to show her my "bad side", hoping she could accept and go pass that. She did say she thought I was "stingy" and didn't like that in the beginning. Personally, i believe that we developed our relationship purely based on our relationship with each other. I could concentrate my mind on her, on making her happy , not on the cost of making her happy. When we went out, I was free and happy not having to worry whether I could afford that place. We decided together whether we could afford that place. When our relationship developed more and more, i was paying more often, willing and happy. I would treat her to some high class restaurants once in a well.

So i believe "going dutch" would free your potential boyfriend one worry, and let him concentrate on your personality instead of the present and future bills.

Australia?
Enjoyed your country. It's not as developed as your mother country yet and far from it.
Enjoy mate.

I experience the same thing on a first date: I offered to pay my share and was shocked he accepted my money. But my friends said I should have SHut up and not said anything, it was my fault. For me, a gentleman would not have accepted my money. But I gave this guy a second chance and we went out again: this time, he paid the entire bill. After a few dates, we became a couple and pays for all the meals while I pay for the movies and coffee. I still sense he would like me to pay for a meal once in a while.

I payed for my girlfriend on the first couple of dates. Then she realized that I'm a poor exchange student and began insisting on paying half. So now we split nearly everything. We also go to less fancy places.

Money does sometimes add some discomfort to the relationship. I've found that when I'm uncomfortable about something, my girlfriend becomes uncomfortable, too. When I make up my mind to just be casual and ignore the unanswerable questions, she seems so relieved and content. If you love being with someone, don't sweat the small stuff. Money is a tool. Letting it ruin a relationship is just as childish as arguing over who gets to hold the television channel changer.

On another note: When I go out to eat with friends, we all pay for our own food. I've never had the experience where the organizer pays all. When we go drinking, we usually just split the bill evenly. It is fun when you can share drinks without worrying about who paid for what.

I too am amazed by the idea that the organizer should or would pay for everything. It's almost like being punished for being the one to make the effort.

For the most part it is custom to go dutch. The girls even offer money. At first when I started dating a japanese girl, she would offer and even insist to pay for her part on the meals. I rejected the offers at first but each time she would give me the cash. I started taking it without thinking twice. Even in my Japanese classes the teacher asked the japanese students who go dutch on their date and all but one put up their hands. It is a custom thing and not like the western thinking where it is somewhat gentlemanly if the guy pays the bill. I like the going dutch system here than the guy pays in Canada. I don't feel bad taking her money anymore because that is the way it works in Japan. Just remember you are in Japan and you can't really bring your dating ideals with you to Japan because it doesn't work out like that. Just my two cents.

I don't get it. Why do they call it going dutch? As far as I know at least the people in the south of the netherlands (like the province Limburg) are very generous people. (I do know that a lot of people up north are kind of greedy,(please don't take this as an offence (A)) at least that was what was told to me). Why isn't it called something like going german, or going french? It's kind of unfair isn't it?

Or am I the only one who thinks that?:P oh wel...

This is the most likely expression I found:

In the seventeenth century, the Dutch and British were enemies. Both wanted maritime superiority for economic reasons, especially control of the sea routes from the rich spice islands of the East Indies. The two countries fought three wars at sea between the years 1652 and 1674. At the lowest point of the struggle, in May 1667, the Dutch sailed up the Medway, sank a lot of ships, and blockaded the Thames. The Dutch were powerful, they were the enemy, they were the bad guys, and their name was taken in vain at every opportunity.

The stereotype of the Dutchman among the English at this period was somebody stolid, miserly, and bad-tempered, and these associations, especially the stinginess, were linked to several phrases.

Examples from the time of the Dutch wars include Dutch reckoning, a bill that is presented without any details, and which only gets bigger if you question it, and a Dutch widow, a prostitute. In the same spirit, but recorded later, are Dutch auction, one in which the prices go down instead of up; Dutch courage, temporary bravery induced by alcohol; Dutch metal, an alloy of copper and zinc used as a substitute for gold foil; Dutch comfort or Dutch consolation, in which somebody might say "thank God it is no worse!"; Dutch concert, in which each musician plays a different tune; Dutch uncle, someone who criticises or rebukes you with the frankness of a relative; and Dutch treat, one in which those invited pay for themselves.

Being Dutch myself, I believe that we are a bit stingy. Personally, I don't see anything wrong in going Dutch, if you are among friends and everybody knows the deal. If you invite people, you'll have to pay.

This topic bothers me greatly.

Women who expect men to pay for their meals are conditioned. I understand that expectation because it is something supported by much of western society.

The result is that misunderstandings are born. Women like "cc" will jump to conclusions about men who prefer to go dutch by calling them "stingy" or "cheap". This is far from accurate or even fair, and it is not even logical. You can't state something such as... "You are cheap if you don't pay for a small meal" ... when you yourself are unwilling to pay for the same small meal.

cc, do you have a job? Can you not take care of yourself? Are you on welfare? Do you live in section 8 housing?

Should I assume these things about you because you are unwilling to pay for your own meal?

In my past relationships and casual dates, I have been a very giving and considerate boyfriend/date. However, considerate gestures, such as paying for a meal, should be sincere, and not scripted. This is why I don't like valentines day. I'd prefer to offer flowers, candy, or going on a romantic date by my own planning. I shouldn't be prompted to do this beacuse it is insincere. It won't mean as much. If you have to be prompted to do this, then how much can it mean?

A surprising gesture of kindness means so much more.

I believe that a relationship needs balance in order to be healthy. If I expect the relationship to be a balanced relationship, then it needs to start out with balance. If I pay for a meal on a special occassion, I should also have my meal paid for every once in a while as well...because it is a nice gesture, whether it is done by a man or a woman. If my girlfriend doesn't have employment or is low on money, that is ok. There are many ways to express kindness or appreciation, such as cooking a meal.

I prefer to express my love in non-monetary ways, not because I'm broke, but because love and money are not synonymous.

I'm more inclined and interested in cooking a full-course meal for a girlfriend rather than buying her meal. I think it means a lot more.

c.c. - what's ur problem with Australians? Coz they push around too much on the soccer field and are arrogant, lack attire and education, don't pay for the ladie's meals? LOL. I live here and honestly I think Australians are pretty generous, usually..


This is a very legit question though. Ok, if I was a woman I would also be highly disappointed if my first offer to pay wasn't rejected back for at least 1-2 times. At least that is how it works for me in reverse psychology coming from man's point of view.

If a girl offered to pay back I guess I would take it as possibly 1) she is not interested in more than dinner and friendship or 2) she is just a very lovely, considerate person or 3) she is 'pretending' to be a lovely woman at first or 4) she is testing me... but she is fine either way paying or not... or perhaps in some cases 5) which is related to (3) she is testing me but never expected to pay anyway!

Well like AK said this guy might have been clueless and took it straight away as no.1) when u offered to pay - he might have thought you're actually rejecting him. The chances of this happening is very high considering he is Japanese and you're a foreigner girl... he might just be really shy and not fond of being rejected - even if he misinterpreted the whole situation himself.

If this was any other type of men I wouldn't give him another chance. But in this peculiar circumstance I think you could give him another chance!

Think of it in his shoes - he probably was never that 'confident' when he asked u out for dinner in the first place. Afterall some Asian men especially those not filthy rich and/or lack experience might already have instilled in his mind he is not going to be liked by a foreign woman.

He probably thought u rejected him on the spot so he didn't want to risk further embarrassing himself!

This is just a possible scenario though. Why don't u ask him out next time and u offer to pay for his full meal? Then u can test if he is really a tight-ass or not, depending if he offers to pay back half or full for the meal..! :P

I think it's interesting how much of a fuzz is made about this incident - sounds just like a typical case of cultural misunderstanding.

I mean come on, you expect someone who's from a completely different cultural background than you to understand that you are saying one thing while wanting the other!

And that when Japanese people usually think that foreigners are very straight-forward and open with their feelings.

I think if you continue going out with him maybe you'll have a nice laugh about this some time ;-)

I am american and have a close japanese girl friend, we split everything, we do not figure the cost of the meal or groceries, even stuff that is only mine or hers, it just split, and based on who has the money, it is cultral, now if it is a romantic date then maybe guy might pay, but everydate i have gone on, it has allways been split some way, know matter the cost, just think of hugging, different culture, also most meals are shared so you either pay all or split anyway.

Hey all, I thought the conversation I had with my Japanese girlfriend tonight would be relevant here.

So my story is that I got a nice internship in Japan and planned to save the money I earned there to pay for my future classes back home, for when I got back. Actually, it turned out I was getting a fair amount of cash. My company paid for my housing, my transportation... I just had to pay for food and utilities. I didn't have to worry about paying for a car or insurance or rent or gas or school expenses or many of the other things I have to pay for back home. So naturally I felt pretty relaxed spending some money, but knew I would have to try and save some for the future.

Then I met my Japanese girlfriend at a party in Osaka. When we first started going out I paid for everything, and was happy doing so. After all, the salary I got at my internship was about 20% better than my 5-year job back in the States, and then without all those other costs. For a while this worked out fine... until she learned I was saving to pay my way through college. Then she insisted on going dutch. At first I resisted, but eventually decided to let it go that way. I didn't want to go dutch, but she had been talking about how she wanted to be a strong woman. She had been saying how she wants to be able to pay for things herself and how she won't accept money from her parents when she goes overseas. She said flat out she wanted us to go dutch... back then. The reason I eventually agreed was because I wanted to respect her feelings about the matter, and I also knew I probably should save.

Tonight she brought up the issue and said that going dutch was never what she wanted to do. She said it made me look ''feminine'' to accept her money. Like I said, I didn't like it either, but having been rasied with old-fashioned values in a liberal American culture, I let her have her way about it. I thought she was trying to protect my future, and I guess she was, but all along she was feeling hurt that I didn't pay for things.

--Japanese people are very indirect--
People talk about the differences between men and women, and they just get compounded across cultures. It can be very frustrating to have a girl tell you one thing and mean another. I know this happens everywhere...

So in the end, I learned that when a Japanese person says, ''this is my honest feeling,'' there's a very good chance it's not. It doesn't matter how much you talk to them about it. You've just got to interpret the best you can.

The thing that frustrates me is that she brought it up now, on my second day back to university. This is the time when she tells me how she was feeling and that she wants me to pay for her. I'd love to, but why now? I could have been paying all along, and then we could have a talk when my finances went down the tube.

I've decided to work extra hours at work, because I love her and want to accomodate her feelings, but I have to admit this is going to be extremely tough. I just don't think having somebody not pay for you should make you feel sad. Then again I'm a man... She's said it's got nothing to do with the money, and I believe her, but can any woman try to explain what's going on in her head? She knows my money is disappearing and has said money doesn't matter, so how can she expect me to pay everything for her?

She's never been greedy or anything over 10 months of knowing her. I know she's not just going for my money.

Please, women, help me... help me understand. I don't wanna be cheap, but why can't women have some understanding for situations such as mine?

Thanks a bunch,

still_learning