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great site 2009/1/31 08:55
I've been reading that site too, and its really good! I'm not sure about learning kanji before kana, but since I already memorized hiragana, and learning katakana... I guess I'll go kanji later. Its seems really good, and I'm listening to Japanese music now (if you read the site, you'd know what I'm talking about, I'm not crazy)
by Kira (guest) rate this post as useful

Yup 2009/2/1 08:15
Yeah this site definatly works.

I would learn the Kanji FIRST, get it out of the way, apperently you need it. I'm about to start learning it, I'm currently waiting for the book "learning the Kanji" He suggested to come in. Take about 12 - 25 characters a day. Should finish in about 2 months.

Then start doing sentence mining.
Yeah I started listening to music to:P
I'm seroiusly starting to really Japanese my envirment now to (You would understand if you ready the site).

And on to the adventure!
by HFF rate this post as useful

That's not all the kanji though... 2009/2/1 08:47
HFF, there are thousands of kanji, just learning the basic ones in that text will not "get kanji out of the way" at all.

There are many more to come after that before you can even begin to be able to read a newspaper for example.

The traditional way to learn Japanese is hiragana-katakana-kanji, for good reasons.
by Sira (guest) rate this post as useful

Yup, good site 2009/2/1 23:09
I'm thinking of "Japaing" my environment too.
Although I dislike having to sell/donate all my books...
I put my gigantic Prince of Tennis wall scroll back up, and did the kanji poster suggestion (did it with Kana though) and it does work ^^ I'm like... wow! I know so much already!
by Kira (guest) rate this post as useful

Sira 2009/2/2 07:18
Sira, its in fact the other way around.

Kanji, then Hiragana, and the Kana. Once your done with that then you can start learning the language, with good reasons.
by HFF rate this post as useful

okay... 2009/2/2 09:21
HFF, I don't know if you are just trying to be funny, but if you want to start by learning 3000 kanji or so before you move on to anything else, good luck with that.

Japanese people all start with hiragana, but you do whatever you like.
by Sira (guest) rate this post as useful

Don't forget to report back... 2009/2/2 09:41
I'd actually be interested to know how that works for you too, so get back to us in 5 years or so once you have mastered all those kanji, but still can't read a basic Japanese sentence because you have yet to start on hiragana and katakana.
by Sira (guest) rate this post as useful

LOL at Kanji First 2009/2/3 03:08
Nobody learns kanji first! The order is hiragana, then katakana, then kanji.
You have to learn to walk before you can run...it just makes things easier.
by Chutoro rate this post as useful

Believe me, it works. 2009/2/3 06:09
Sira,

This is why everyone takes so much times to learn it!
This guy learned 2000+ Kanji in 3 months, and was fully fluent in Japanese in 18. At first I was quite skeptic, but all the comment feedback says it... well works (It does.).

You get the hard things out of the way first. I guess you didn't read his site at all.

These are the ''Phases''

[[Quote from site]]

''As I。ッve already mentioned, I spent 18 months learning Japanese hardcore (still learning it softcore now that I live in Japan), and in that time I learned a lot about both Japanese and just life in general. I have lot to throw at you, and it。ッs best to do it piecemeal.

Right, let。ッs give you an overview of the method I used to learn Japanese to fluency in 18 months. There。ッs no real magic to this way of learning, but it is effective, and you or anyone else could repeat it.

Phase 0: Belief

Start believing you can do it (you。ッre thinking 。ーthat。ッs stupid; Khatzumoto has been eating stale sushi again; how is this a phase?。ア, but you。ッd be amazed how many people set off on the noble journey of learning Japanese, but forget to first believe that they can reach their destination: what a dreadful way to start off!) But not you. You。ッre going to start believing that you can and will become fluent in Japanese.

Believing in yourself is essential, but by itself it obviously won。ッt get you anywhere. We know that ability is useless without motivation, but motivation is not a substitute for knowledge and knowledge is gained through daily action.


Phase 1: Get the equipment for daily action

(i) Immersion Environment

This is less a phase and more a continuing。ュthing. But it。ッs really crucial. It。ッs the center around which this 。ーmethod。ア revolves. You basically are simulating being born and raised as a native speaker of Japanese.

(ii) SRS

Language learning involves lots of memorization, and if you want to memorize large quantities of information over a long time, then drop the paper flashcards, mate. You need an SRS: a spaced repetition system.

An SRS is a program that tests you on electronic flashcards (which you make), at a frequency that it determines is best for you. The goal is to make this frequency high enough that you don。ッt forget, but low enough that you don。ッt waste your time. So the system will show you the card as infrequently as possible. Sounds like common sense? It is, but it。ッs very powerful common sense. Truth be told, you could even manage it with paper cards, except that that would be a beastly, medieval amount of work to do. Trust me, I have tried managing paper flash cards in this way and it takes up too much time. Let the computer do it for you.

There are many SRS around and many are free. Let。ッs focus on the free ones. I wrote a web-based one called KhatzuMemo; it。ッs web-based only; it。ッs still under development, so it。ッs very short on features. Mnemosyne is offline only, no-frills but very reliable. Anki is the deservedly the most popular choice out there right now; it works both online and offline and boasts a rich feature set。ュit can be a bit unstable sometimes, but。ュI。ッm just finding fault out of jealousy. I used to use a commercial (not free) SRS called SuperMemo, it is perhaps the oldest in the field, but unfortunately its user interface is buggy and complex.

Ultimately, it matters less which SRS you pick and more that you use one.


Phase 2: Remembering the Kanji

Learn at least 2046 general use kanji in English, using James Heisig。ッs seminal book, Remembering the Kanji (RTK), Part I. Part II is unnecessary. Part III is good; you can do it right after Part I or mix it in with later phases if you want.

The idea is that given a single English keyword, you learn to write out every general use kanji from memory. Don。ッt argue with me, just do it. You。ッll thank me later. You input the stuff from the book into the SRS. If you think that。ッs tedious, then you。ッre right. But the data entry itself may help you remember better. If you want to avoid the typing, you can join the Remembering the Kanji Yahoo Group, people there have typed the stuff up for you. Alternatively, Reviewing the Kanji is a website where people learning kanji using Heisig。ッs book gather. I didn。ッt use it myself, but I hear great things about it.

Do not: pause in your kanji study. Do not: start learning Japanese grammar on the side before finishing kanji. Learn kanji first. If you。ッre going at like 25 kanji/day, then it will take 3 months. At 12 kanji/day, it will take 6 months. And that。ッs fine; if you。ッre a busy person with other commitments, then it。ッs going to take that much time. Stay the course. The sooner you start, the sooner you。ッll be done. Start today, and you will thank me later.

Phase 3: Remembering the Kana

Learn the 46 hiragana and katakana respectively using Heisig。ッs Remembering the Kana. Why do this after kanji? Well

You have needed kana until now, because you。ッll have been study kanji only.
After learning 2046 kanji, you will see the 92 kana for what they are: a walk in the cake.
You can learn kana in as little as a few hours. Probably 2-3 days. At most a week. Kanji will take several weeks, perhaps a few months. Do the task that takes longer, first.
Phase 4: Sentences

Learn to read aloud 10,000 gramatically correct, native-like Japanese sentences/phrases (confession: I only learned ~7500 in the 18-month period, but you are better than me).

Do not: learn individual words. Learn sentences
Do not: translate sentences. Understand them instead.
Do not: learn grammar rules. Do get a feel for grammar, do read about grammar if you feel like it, but learning grammar rules in order to use a language is like learning quantum physics in order to drive a car. Sure, grammar rules are the rules of a language like quantum physics is the rules of the physical world. But it。ッs not practical. You shouldn。ッt be thinking of grammar rules as you try to speak any more than you should be crunching Schroedinger equations as you speed down the highway.
You。ッre not a computer compiler, evaluating expressions based on rules. You。ッre a human being, and humans use a different logic. When you speak your native language, you generally are mixing and matching entire sentences/phrases. That。ッs what you want to do in Japanese 。ェ learn sentences, because not only do they give you the grammar, but also vocabulary and usage.''

Now, on to the real Kanji question... thing.

Question: ''Why Kanji first? don。ッt see how it could be much help without knowing how to read them.''

Answer: ''A lot of people don。ッt before they do it.
Short answer: Try it first, and you。ッll understand.
Long answer: kanji primarily have meaning. That。ッs why Mandarin, Japanese, Vietnamese, Cantonese, Korean。ュall can use the very same kanji despite pronouncing them completely differently. That。ッs why a single kanji in Japanese can have multiple readings. Because the meaning is the same. You can understand so much through 。ーonly。ア knowing the meaning and writing. For example:

僂キNテ、ヌ、「、・S-11、ホ。クYS。ケ、マン藩ヘ僂ヤOモ錦ミセソ・サ皃ホ。クン藩ヘ僂。ケ、ネ。クヤOモ僑ケs、ホzホトラヨ。クY。ケ、ネ。クS。ケ、、ネ、テ、ソ、筅ホ。」
machine-type-name: model name
ン藩ヘ僂
transport-send-machine: transport plane
ヤOモ・
establish-plot(plan): design
zホトラヨ
head-writing-character: initial (letter)
ラヤシコム}ムu
self-ego duplicate-manufacture: self-replication
サノス
fire-mountain: volcano
サィサ・
flower-fire: fireworks

Parts of this example were taken from here.

When you know and understand the parts, a logical composite whole is often much easier to understand. When you don。ッt know the parts, you。ッre just lost. But what about readings, you say? I。ッd learn those later。ュSeriously. There is not enough un-fuzzy logic there, see for yourself:
サノス/、ォ-、カ、・
サィサ・、マ、ハ-、モ

Pay particular attention to this:

One only has to look at the progress of non-Japanese raised with kanji to see the logic of [this] approach. When Chinese adult students come to the study of Japanese, they already know what the [individual] kanji mean and how to write them. They have only to learn how to read them. The progress they make in comparison with their Western counterparts is usually attributed to their being 。ーOriental。ア. In fact, Chinese grammar and pronunciation have about as much to do with Japanese and English does [Khatz: no, really。ュthis is not an exaggeration]. It is their knowledge of the meaning and writing of the kanji that gives the Chinese the decisive edge. My idea was simply to learn from this common experience and give the kanji an English reading. Having learned to write the kanji in this way 。ェ which, I repeat, is the most logical and rational part of the study of Japanese 。ェ one is in a much better position to concentrate on the often irrational and unprincipled problem of learning to pronounce them. [Emphasis and silly side comments added].

Another thing I will add is that there are plenty of words you simply cannot grasp if you don。ッt know the kanji; the author of the book The Kanji Way to Japanese Language Power refers to it as a sort of glass ceiling. Not only that, but a lot of times in conversations in Japanese (and Chinese), when people hear a word they don。ッt understand, they will ask 。ーwhat。ッs the kanji for that?。ア. Kanji is the foundation of Japanese. Kana themselves are nothing but kanji mutant children.''

:P

You finish the rest of the Kanji when/after sentences.

by HFF rate this post as useful

Again, good luck with that 2009/2/3 09:26
You seriously underestimate the amount of time it will take you to learn and retain over 2,000 kanji. It takes Japanese school children years of study, as it does for the rest of us.

One guy claims he learned them in a suspiciously short time and that his method works better than anyone else's- you can choose whether or not you want to believe him. I personally don't.

If you learn hiragana first, you will be able to start reading basic Japanese soon after. Most verbs in Japanese are composed of kanji and hiragana in the same word- you won't be able to read a single verb correctly, or know which tense it is in until you know hiragana.

You would also understand very little of a coffee shop menu in Japan without katakana- learning all the kanji first is just impractical. The kana are the basic building blocks of the Japanese language.

I find the claim that he learned, and retained, 2,000 kanji in 6 months to be quite outrageous, but again, see how it goes for you and then report back to us. Maybe it's a miraculous new method that everyone in the world including the Japanese should be adopting.
by Sira (guest) rate this post as useful

Yup 2009/2/9 03:31
Again,

Read the site.

you retain the information through an SRS. You spend about 2 - 4 hours a day through the reps. The one's you don't remember it show you more frequently, the one's you do it shows you them but over a longer period of time.

Its all of how the human brain remembers things.

Anyway thanks for all the help guys.
by HFF rate this post as useful

kanji 2009/2/9 08:32
Well, that's what the site claims- doesn't necessarily make it true, or practical, or possible for everyone. Anyway, good luck with your studies- definitely come back and tell us how it worked in 6 months' time!
by Sira (guest) rate this post as useful

Alrighty 2009/2/10 02:13
Will due:]

Well, I've already memorized around 100 Kanji the past 5 days taking on 20 - 25 Kanji a day. I can recall them quite good to.

Plus as I said before the feedback is basically all positive saying it works.

Anyway, Again thanks for all the help guys^^
by HFF rate this post as useful

potential issues 2009/2/10 08:26
When you say you have memorised 100 kanji, what does that mean exactly? Can you now write them from memory or just read them? Have you memorised all possible readings and the compounds they are usually found in? Once you get past the basics (the first few hundred are very simple) you will find that the kanji you are learning have more abstract meanings and are not often seen by themselves but are usually part of verbs, adjectives and compound nouns with other kanji.

Also it's quite easy to memorise a lot of kanji in the short term, only to find that you have forgotten many of them in a few weeks time. To retain those kanji you will have to constantly revise them while you are learning new ones.
by Sira (guest) rate this post as useful

Just Found 2009/2/11 10:37
Quote:
Learn the 46 hiragana and katakana respectively using Heisig’s Remembering the Kana. Why do this after kanji? No particular reason…you could do the kana first if you wanted, even though you won’t be using them much.
Unquote
I found that on the All Japanese All the Time site.
by Kira (guest) rate this post as useful

Yups 2009/2/14 07:47
Sira,

I can recall them as in write them from memory, know the meaning, etc. Also yes,

They can be learned quickly in a short amount of time but forgotten afterward. Thats what the SRS is for, it keeps showing it to you, over, and over, and over. Less frequently each time, until its stuck there.

So yeah, It works for me:]

Its cool to, when I'm looking at Kanji sometimes on Japanese sites, I can start picking out the Kanji knowing what they mean. Its kinda cool.
by HFF rate this post as useful

great! 2009/2/14 11:03
I finished learning all the kana, and I want to order Remembering the Kanji.

Good job on learning the kanji! Was it hard to submit all the info into the SMS system?
by Kira (guest) rate this post as useful

kanji again 2009/2/14 14:31
HFF, well it's still early days yet. If in year's time you have retained every single one of those kanji I will be very impressed. If you are not learning the structure of the language concurrently though they are just so many symbols, and you have a long road ahead of you once you have "finished" the kanji and start learning the language.

Just my opinion, but I really think they are best learned together.
by Sira (guest) rate this post as useful

Mmm 2009/2/16 03:18
Kira,

It wasn't hard at all at entering in to the SRS. It helps you remember it in fact.

And Sira,

Yeah it probably will take me a year to learn ALL of the Kanji, should be fun though:] 300 Kanji now:] (... Ok 287)
by HFF rate this post as useful

wow! 2009/2/16 03:49
I started entering some info in the SRS. Good job remembering the kanji, I'm guessing that the book is really good? I just ordered mine today, so it'll get in soon (hopefully).
by Kira (guest) rate this post as useful

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